KAK Shockwave Blade Pistol/SBR Grip - Shoot from Shoulder? Legal USPSA?

[L3324temp]

 
Don't you think you'd run into reshoots from not picking up shots?  I can't see them ever allowing it, especially since a lot of clubs are having that problem with unsuppressed PCCs.  I've turned up the sensitivity on my timer to help with that issue, but I'm always watching to see if it picks up the Open gun in the next bay over.

There is zero issue if you are running supersonic ammo through the gun. It really isn’t even an issue using subsonic ammo but I suppose there could be a combo that is just that quiet, but I have not seen it yet.


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[HCH]

Shameless reply, solely for post count:

 

Pistol braces are not legal in USPSA competitions. The rule book would inform you of this. 

[usmc1974]

On 7/2/2018 at 5:10 PM, MacLethal said:

Following.. from what I understood, firing from the shoulder with a KAK blade or a brace was ok as per the letters from ATF, but USPSA took a stance as not ok for competition if I remember correctly. It would be a good thing to know for sure though as it’s been a while since the ATF letters have been written.


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You remember correctly.

[RaylanGivens]

Do you have a link to the ATF correspondence that states that shooting from the shoulder with the KAK blade?

 

KAK originally said they would post such a letter, but haven't as far as I know.

[Hammer002]

11 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Loads do not have to be modified at all, so you're wrong there. The folks at Dead Air have thoroughly debunked the myth that MODERN, QUALITY suppressors have adverse effects on velocity of the projectile. 

I prefer shooting my suppressed PCC to my unsuppressed PCC for performance. I've done the practice to know why I prefer the can and when the comp still has an advantage in specific matches. I also prefer a suppressor to a comp on a rifle or a "real rifle" (bigger than 223) and at matches that allow it this year, I'm running a can. Not everyone agrees with my perspective. Do I think comps are effect? Hell yes. Is a can a better choice for applications where there is minimal gas to run a comp, indoors or near other solid structures? Maybe. 

However, I would encourage you to run 500 rounds of real long range loads through a comped rifle in front of a conex, between highway barricades, under a covered structure, with a partner, prone in fine sand and through a culvert. Then practice another couple hundred rounds in an indoor shoot house and get back to me if you think there's nothing gained from running a suppressor. Lol? 

 

 

Well, that MUST be why all the top names are doing it......wait....

 

And you are comparing apples to oranges to lemons.  9mm has nothing to do with “bigger than .223,” especially when loading to minimum recoil standards.  And yes, the “real world” scenarios you describe all show benefit by using a silencer for far more reasons than to be discussed here.  And don’t assume you are talking to someone without equal experience, because, I assure you, you would be surprised.  HOWEVER, the first thing you must grasp in competition, is that it’s NOT the real world.  The more you attempt to show you know so much about one world, of which I question by your descriptions, the more you show to know even less about the other.  Even in your “real world,” charges are specific to suppressed guns, especially “bigger than .223.”  What charge is effective in a rifle suppressed, will not perform the same with the suppressor removed, which is why they usually aren’t.  Ever.  So if you take a 16 inch PCC vs another of the same, the SUCCESSFUL round recipe will be different if one is suppressed.  Not to mention the rifles premium effective zone and desired accuracy range.  And as far as running a comped gun anywhere you describe is sheer idiocy on premise alone, especially for the environment and implied use you describe.  So if it took you 500 rounds to figure it out, well.....ouch.  Most would have learned on the first shot.  Comps are for competition.  If you are thinking they have a place in the “real world,” I would suggest another 500 rounds.  Maybe this time from inside a car, with the windows UP.  With the same buddy inside with you.  Maybe he can help you with your evaluation.  Will probably be some time after though, cause you’re both gonna have to learn sign language.

 

Last, yes, high end silencers are theorized to have less impact on velocity.  First, this is high end silencers made a particular way.  Second, this is high velocity, premium or hand loaded (meaning one at a time vs mass amounts on a Dillon 650 clamped to a garage workbench) ammunition being discussed where the same percentage of influence shows in different ways.  Minimum power factor 9mm with high values of acceptable variation in exact powder charge due to its method of assembly, will likely perform differently; Theoretically.  Third, there are just as many “folks” with opposing arguments, equally cherry picking data for their particular sponser to represent.  Fourth, velocity is just one of the considerations.  Same as running a comp, the gun may very well likely operate or function completely different.  No one can argue the physics of the change in gas flow suppressed vs not is significantly different, and will therefore affect the guns effectiveness and reliability based on how well it is set up.  Not that it cannot be set up stellar to do so, but that was my point, one would have to cater the round, as well as several other things, to shooting suppressed WELL.

 

My point remains, despite NO conversation between us regarding it, there is nothing GAINED by using a suppressor in COMPETITION.  And you still haven’t admitted it’s for the cool factor.  Or the tacticool factor, which seems to apply here.  “Hey man, why do you shoot with a silencer?”  “Well, you see lessor competitor than me except for the score, I am tacticool guy and I shoot in front of conexes, between highway barricades, and under covered structures, with my poor partner next to me in a culvert.”  Although you did suggest you prefer your suppressed PCC due to its “performance.”  Now, I’ll be the first to admit, everyone is entitled  to shooting what they “feel good” shooting.  The top scores of any given match just usually aren’t based on that.  So, I would be curious, outside of a personal feel or attachment, what performance one would gain in the competition environment shooting a suppressed anything?  And then apply the answer to why no one with a name in the industry is doing it?  Because no one agrees with your perspective?

 

I'm getting back to you, in the real world.  All BS aside, there are many places a silencer is exceptional.  This is a competition forum.  That’s what we are talking about here.  You, for some reason, mixed the standards of one world with another, quite inappropriately I might add, and then topped it off with some hostility.  But yet, still, no, there is nothing to be gained by utilizing a silencer in competition.  Lol?  Which, lol, the scope of the discussion was even spelled out in the exact post you quoted.  Competition environment.  Not Afghanistan.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Hammer002

[ima45dv8]

This is morphing into a discussion AT each other. Not a good drift. 

Make your points objectively. Being personal ain't the way to do it.

 

 

Soooo. . .just what was the original question?

[Hammer002]

6 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

This is morphing into a discussion AT each other. Not a good drift. 

Make your points objectively. Being personal ain't the way to do it.

 

 

Soooo. . .just what was the original question?

 

Is a brace legal to be shot in PCC. Answered:  no

 

Now we’re just licking each other to see how we taste.  

Edited July 7, 2018 by Hammer002

[PatJones]

Did I stumble into pistol-forum?

[RaylanGivens]

9 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

This is morphing into a discussion AT each other. Not a good drift. 

Make your points objectively. Being personal ain't the way to do it.

 

 

Soooo. . .just what was the original question?

 

The original question was two part... 

 

   1.  Are Shockwave type braces legal in USPSA?  USPSA rules do not allow any of these pistol braces in competition - This part of the question is answered!

 

   2.  Has the ATF legalized shooting Shockwave type braces from the shoulder?  This question has not been answered...  KAK posted a message stating that they talked to an (anonomous) ATF agent that stated that these "pistol Braces" could be shot from the shoulder and that they would provide written documentation/proof from the ATF...  That has not happened as far as I know...  I'm asking for someone to post authentic documentation from the ATF that supports shooting short barrelled rifles from the shoulder with one of these braces.

 

Many shooters are showing up at our range with SBR's that have the Shockwave brace attached...  They have the KAK paperwork or some other paperwork that states that SBR's can be fired with these braces, BUT they must be shot as a pistol...  The brace can not be used from the shoulder...  If a shooter shoulder-fires an AR-15 with a pistol brace, the rifle instantly becomes an illegal SBR...  That's why the original ATF paperwork requested changes to these devices...  to make them unfriendly for shoulder firing.

 

This has caused a lot of issues/problems at our range...  That's why I'm looking for a definitive answer.

[PatJones]

This is the USPSA rules section of the forum. The second part of your question would best be discussed somewhere else.

[RaylanGivens]

Agreed, but I posted this before I found out the answer to the USPSA half of the question.

[HCH]

1 hour ago, RaylanGivens said:

Agreed, but I posted this before I found out the answer to the USPSA half of the question.

 

I found this. There’s an excerpt from the letter, and a link to the letter itself within the article. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/04/foghorn/atf-its-legal-to-shoulder-an-ar-15-pistol-equipped-with-an-sb-tactical-arm-brace/amp/