Hodgdon Titegroup vs VV N320 for 9mm

[perttime]

What is too fast or too slow depends on what you are trying to accomplish. N320 should be about right for 9mm Minor or .40 Major. It is on the slow side for .45 Major. 9mm Major? Don't even think about it.

[Garmil]

10 hours ago, jripper said:

Too fast?  Do you mean burn rate?  Tight Group is actually lower (faster) on burn rate charts than N320. 

Oops I meant to put N310 in my top sentence.

[jripper]

13 hours ago, Garmil said:

Oops I meant to put N310 in my top sentence.

Oh,  Yes, well in this case I agree.  310 is probably too quick for 9mm.

 

[Garmil]

18 minutes ago, jripper said:

Oh,  Yes, well in this case I agree.  310 is probably too quick for 9mm.

 

I think it works great for 9mm

[jripper]

1 hour ago, Garmil said:

I think it works great for 9mm

What bullet weight are you working with for 310?  Are you going for USPSA minor? 

[Garmil]

Mainly 124. Yes minor

[perttime]

124 grain bullets to Minor might be pushing the pressures a bit with N310. Depends.

[Red Ryder]

IMHO There is no better power for loading 9mm minor than N320. It is the standard that we compare every other Powder to. Titegroup, or titepoop as I have nicknamed it, is a decent and popular 9mm powder. But compared to N320, Titepoop is hotter, dirtier, smokier, and snappier. As a 9mm reloading snob, I prefer N320 hands down. I also noticed that my Titepoop 9mm loads grouped acceptably at 140PF where the N320 loads grouped well at 131 PF. I prefer less recoil. Hope this helps.

[StuckinMS]

52 minutes ago, Red Ryder said:

IMHO There is no better power for loading 9mm minor than N320. It is the standard that we compare every other Powder to. Titegroup, or titepoop as I have nicknamed it, is a decent and popular 9mm powder. But compared to N320, Titepoop is hotter, dirtier, smokier, and snappier. As a 9mm reloading snob, I prefer N320 hands down. I also noticed that my Titepoop 9mm loads grouped acceptably at 140PF where the N320 loads grouped well at 131 PF. I prefer less recoil. Hope this helps.

 could not have said it better.

[IDescribe]

N320 is very good for 9mm minor.  It is NOT the holy grail.

 

It IS clean.  So is American Select.  So is Sport Pistol.  And at the end of the day, clean doesn't matter.  Bullseye is NOT clean, and that is what I shoot most of.  I also don't clean my pistols much. And it doesn't matter.  When I do clean, it doesn't take any more effort to clean super dirty than it does standard dirty.

 

In my own testing, I have found N320 to produce very accurate ammo -- one of the better ones.  I have produced my most accurate 9mm minor loads with Bullseye.  American Select is another powder that has produced extremely accurate loads for me.  Honestly, if you have a good pistol with a good barrel and a good crown, good bullets, and good bullet to barrel fit, you're going to get good accuracy.

Soft shooting?  All 9mm minor is soft shooting.  I would say there's no reason to go to slower burning powders like CFE Pistol or Power Pistol or WSF or Be-86 or AA5, AA7, bla bla bla for 9mm minor, in part because of additional recoil, and in part because more powder and cost per cartridge to reach the same power factor, but when people start talking about two powders of such similar burn rates at Titegroup and N320 and one being softer than the other, IF there is a perceptible difference there, it's a difference that no one would notice when shooting a stage, a difference that would mean nothing to split times.  I have done it during testing -- "Oooooh  Ahhhhh... so soft."  But once the start timer beeps, you will  never notice a difference between similar powders.

I have shot a LOT of Titegroup.  It is nowhere near my favorite, and generally speaking, it's doesn't beat N320 on anything but price.  People will say N320 is a half or three quarters of a penny more per round to shoot with, and they are correct.  Personally, I don't buy powder by the round, though.  I prefer to buy 16 pounds at a time, so when I buy, and N320 is $450 for 16 pounds, and Bullseye is $260 for 16 pounds... why would I buy N320?  Because it's cleaner?  No, thank you.  Don't care. Because it's more accurate?  It isn't.  Because it's softer?  It isn't. 

If the price diff between TG and N320 doesn't matter, and those are your only two choices, then YES, N320 all day, every day.  But I would suggest maybe those shouldn't be your two choices.  If you expand to all the powders available, there are better options than either.





 

[Steve RA]

I've had excellent luck with Clays (Australian) in 9mm (minor) and it works well in .45ACP for minor or major.  From what I understand E3 is about the same - burn rate.  I have a lot of the Australian Clays and have not tried the Canadian version, although I've read that it isn't exactly the same.

[Red Ryder]

N320 is very good for 9mm minor.  It is NOT the holy grail.
 
It IS clean.  So is American Select.  So is Sport Pistol.  And at the end of the day, clean doesn't matter.  Bullseye is NOT clean, and that is what I shoot most of.  I also don't clean my pistols much. And it doesn't matter.  When I do clean, it doesn't take any more effort to clean super dirty than it does standard dirty.
 
In my own testing, I have found N320 to produce very accurate ammo -- one of the better ones.  I have produced my most accurate 9mm minor loads with Bullseye.  American Select is another powder that has produced extremely accurate loads for me.  Honestly, if you have a good pistol with a good barrel and a good crown, good bullets, and good bullet to barrel fit, you're going to get good accuracy.

Soft shooting?  All 9mm minor is soft shooting.  I would say there's no reason to go to slower burning powders like CFE Pistol or Power Pistol or WSF or Be-86 or AA5, AA7, bla bla bla for 9mm minor, in part because of additional recoil, and in part because more powder and cost per cartridge to reach the same power factor, but when people start talking about two powders of such similar burn rates at Titegroup and N320 and one being softer than the other, IF there is a perceptible difference there, it's a difference that no one would notice when shooting a stage, a difference that would mean nothing to split times.  I have done it during testing -- "Oooooh  Ahhhhh... so soft."  But once the start timer beeps, you will  never notice a difference between similar powders.

I have shot a LOT of Titegroup.  It is nowhere near my favorite, and generally speaking, it's doesn't beat N320 on anything but price.  People will say N320 is a half or three quarters of a penny more per round to shoot with, and they are correct.  Personally, I don't buy powder by the round, though.  I prefer to buy 16 pounds at a time, so when I buy, and N320 is $450 for 16 pounds, and Bullseye is $260 for 16 pounds... why would I buy N320?  Because it's cleaner?  No, thank you.  Don't care. Because it's more accurate?  It isn't.  Because it's softer?  It isn't. 

If the price diff between TG and N320 doesn't matter, and those are your only two choices, then YES, N320 all day, every day.  But I would suggest maybe those shouldn't be your two choices.  If you expand to all the powders available, there are better options than either.





 

I tailored my response to the specific question of the original post. Your expanded response definitely contains food for thought. We are extremely fortunate to live and reload in a time where information that took months or years to accumulate is readily available in seconds. I believe that N320 is the best. I am well aware that opinions are like assh*les. But this is my 2 cents after shooting and reloading tens of thousands of rounds with many different recipes and powders. Many newer reloaders will never appreciate the work and toil the older guys put into recipes and data collection in order to validate their opinions.

[IDescribe]

2 hours ago, Red Ryder said:

I tailored my response to the specific question of the original post. Your expanded response definitely contains food for thought. We are extremely fortunate to live and reload in a time where information that took months or years to accumulate is readily available in seconds. I believe that N320 is the best. I am well aware that opinions are like assh*les. But this is my 2 cents after shooting and reloading tens of thousands of rounds with many different recipes and powders. Many newer reloaders will never appreciate the work and toil the older guys put into recipes and data collection in order to validate their opinions.

 

Can't say I disagree with anything you said there. 

 

And that is what I was doing - - offering food for thought.   It is more often than others HP38/231, N320, and TG pitted against each other for 9mm minor.  Of those three, N320 is best.   I dont think particularly highly of the other two. 

 

But there are lots of good powders for that application. 

 

 

[highhope]

 if the cost is the same, load N320 no brain

[BallisticianX]

Ive worked with both powders quite a bit over the years and both powders are fine specimens. Just like anything else they have areas they are great in and some that its not best suited. Comparing a powder to another powder in generalities is unrealistic. TG is in the fast class of Handgun Powder whereas N320 is in the more medium class. Two different speeds so that will compliment different ends of a spectrum with a single caliber. Ill do my best to sum up my experience with the popular hand gun range.

TG is a fine powder in 38 spcl, 40, 45, 38 super and 9mm as is N320....but with caveats to both. 

The complaint of how hot TG gets is somewhat true but embellished on in my opinion.. Its not overwhelmingly hotter than any other powder after a long session at the range, the gun is gonna be hot after rapidly firing a hundred rounds without a break no matter what powder your burning. After firing a typical stage I never noticed my guns anymore hot vs. from anything else.

With coated bullets Ive noticed TG in any high pressure rounds like 9mm, 38 super, or 40 the accuracy is not consistent (especially 9mm) and is a bad choice. In low pressure like 38 spcl and 45's it usually shows me the best accuracy with coated bullets. N320 delivers accurate results across the high pressure rounds with coated bullets and blows TG away in that spectrum. However with plated or Jacketed in 9mm, & 38 Super, & 40 Ive usually found TG and N320 perform closely with an advantage concerning ES going to TG. With Plated or Jacketed in 38 spcl (and most other varients) & 45 TG yields more accuracy then N320. The one exception is the 38 Short Colt, N320 wins in that round with any bullet in a modern 38 or .357 cylinder. 

Smokiness; TG smokes with coated or cast in the higher pressure rounds, in lower pressure ones it smokes no more than N320. Both equal in Plated or Jacketed. 

 

Loading:  In my Hornady L-N-L thrower both meter equally well. Both powders work better with Hotter loads. TG mainly because it has a close window of charge range so you dont have a choice. With  N320 Ive just found it's inconsistent in most rounds when loaded at min to middle charge weights, more so with large case volume rounds like the 38 spcl and 45.    

Cleanliness, they both are pretty clean, N320 has a slight edge in higher pressure rounds regarding soot and TG better in lower pressure rounds as theres no singed kernals like with N320. Either way not enough to be a dealbreaker to either one. 

Cost; thats a personal referendum (if even applicable) that is up to you to decide if you wanna save or spend. I will mention if you desire N320 characteristics and want it cheaper Ive found A# 2 is near identical in burn rate and mirrors feel, cleanliness, velocity range, and close in charge weight. I have converted all my N320 fed guns to A# 2 and have been pleased.  

 

 

 

 

 

[dvc4you]

For 9mm minor is difficult to beat Clays


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[emjei]

I just bought some N320 ....(also have Tite)

It takes 3.15 of Tite with a 147gr bullet to make 131PF on both of my Stock 2

Yet it takes 3.30 with N320 to do the same

I probably go back to Tite once N320 is gone



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Ssanders224]

1 hour ago, emjei said:

I just bought some N320 ....(also have Tite)

It takes 3.15 of Tite with a 147gr bullet to make 131PF on both of my Stock 2

Yet it takes 3.30 with N320 to do the same

I probably go back to Tite once N320 is gone



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

 

Why in the world would you go back to TG?

 

If you aren’t concerned about the price, N320 performs better than TG in every way. 

[GeneBray]

For 9mm minor is difficult to beat Clays


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I like Clays although don’t recall testing in 9mm. For me it doesn’t meter as well as other powers with sample grain sizes. Other than not being as clean as N310/320, and what is, that is the only down side to Clays.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Adamj]

I started with Titegroup and switched to N320. I will not be going back. 

[HesedTech]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:41 AM, Ssanders224 said:

N320 performs better than TG in every way. 

 

Could you list how N320 performs better for you than TG?

 

Just to state its better without data really doesn't make sense.

 

Is it:

less smoke?

tighter SDs?

smaller 25yd groups?

demonstratably cleaner?

 

 

I load TG in 9mm minor and 40 major and the only thing I notice is cleanliness changes with bullet type and load size.

My PD FMJ RN 147s leave more carbon than both coated and FMJ HPs (124 9mm and 180 40) because lead is exposed on the base. And it doesn't matter which powder I've tried or what brand of coated bullets the results have been the same. The older Blues would leave a blue residue at the muzzle.

 

Always an interesting thread topic to view.

[BiggMike]

On 7/3/2018 at 12:05 PM, rowdyb said:

I know I am in the minority but I use a 1050, albeit a very old one, and got absolute crap metering out of n320.  Didn't matter if I used the mechanical bell crank powder bar return or the two spring version. Didn't matter if I used the Dillon or a glass hopper. Didn't matter if I used a baffle or not. Didn't matter if I applied vibration or not to the hopper. Didn't matter if I used a Dillon small, extra small powder bar or a plastic Arredondo one. Didn't matter in a polished or not hopper base. Can you tell I tried considerably to make it work?

 

I would get 0.3 to 0.4 grain variations in drop. In the exact same press without all the finicky stuff I get great, consistent drops of WST, Titegroup, E3, Sport Pistol, WinClean and AA#2. There is something about its, N320, density and rod shape that just killed it for me. I know I know, once again I am in the minority of hating it. But that was my experience.

 

Good loads felt great, shot great and all the other subjective measurements. But I absolutely could not trust it for a reliable, consistent drop in my press.

I had this same problem with my 1050. Unfortunately for me, I found this out at Nationals when I failed the chrono by 3%. The crazy part is that when I first started using N320, all my drops were dead on but somewhere the drops got sporadic. I switched back to HS-6 and my drops are dead on.

[G34production]

Titegroup is much faster burning powder compared to VV which burns slower and would be great for a comp on an open gun.

[Chili]

1 hour ago, G34production said:

Titegroup is much faster burning powder compared to VV which burns slower and would be great for a comp on an open gun.

 

That advice most certainly does not apply to N320.

[perttime]

Yep. N320 is towards the faster end of the Vihtavuori spectrum. If you want a Vihtavuori powder for a comped Open gun, you go for N350, 3N37 or 3N38.