Treadmill Stage

[johnbu]

We do 3 gun at the range and are now starting uspsa.  Our club has gotten a free treadmill that can be used in stage designs.  (yeah!)

 

But... there is concern about using it. (boo)

 

The  initial stage design has the speed set at 2mph (a slow walk) with 8 shots worth of mixed steel and classic targets 10 yds in front.  A second (stationary) position is 10-15 yards further back and to the side for those that choose to shoot stationarily or that are deemed "unsafe" to shoot on the treadmill.  Everyone would start on the treadmill with it being ON for those shooting from it and OFF for those choosing to run back to the alternate shooting box.  No penalty for not using the treadmill, just a harder longer shot that is run to (time loss).

 

Is this an acceptable concept to allow the fair use of the treadmill? 

Is it "ok" for the range officer to tell a competitor that they are too uncoordinated to safely shoot on the treadmill? 

 

I think using a treadmill would be a challenge for some, easy for others and a way to make a distinction for our club.  Or is it just a crazy idea?

 

Also are there any additional safety items that should be addressed when a treadmill is used as a shooting position?

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by johnbu

[amokscience]

Yes, no, it's fine, go for it 

[Flatland Shooter]

It's good to have a provision for those that just cannot use a treadmill.  Possibly include another shooting position or a penalty for not engaging a target from the moving treadmill.

 

I've used a treadmill for over 30 years and due to an old back injury, cannot walk on the treadmill at any speed without one hand at least resting on support.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Flatland Shooter

[johnbu]

19 minutes ago, amokscience said:

Yes, no, it's fine, go for it 

Brevity.  good. thanks

 

 

2 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

It would be good to have a provision for those that just cannot use a treadmill.  Possibly include another shooting position or a penalty for not engaging a target from the moving treadmill.

 

I've used a treadmill for over 30 years and due to an old back injury, cannot walk on the treadmill at any speed without one hand at least resting on support.

 

Yes, there is a 2nd position for just that reason.

[MikeBurgess]

So if I stand on the sides of the treadmill rather than walk on it (as I would do) what are you going to say? what constitutes an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line"? 

 

I ask it that way because you have to cite a rule to issue a penalty, if you cant site a rule, then there is no penalty.

 

If you can find a rule that supports giving a penalty for not standing on the moving belt please let me know so I can use it. I have looked and come up dry.

 

It seems that it would be very hard to construct a stage in a way where the moving belt would be the only legal place to have your feet, and if it is not then nobody will walk on it when they can stand and shoot better and faster. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by MikeBurgess

[stick]

7 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

So if I stand on the sides of the treadmill rather than walk on it (as I would do) what are you going to say? what constitutes an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line"? 

 

I ask it that way because you have to cite a rule to issue a penalty, if you cant site a rule, then there is no penalty.

 

If you can find a rule that supports giving a penalty for not standing on the moving belt please let me know so I can use it. I have looked and come up dry.

 

It seems that it would be very hard to construct a stage in a way where the moving belt would be the only legal place to have your feet, and if it is not then nobody will walk on it when they can stand and shoot better and faster. 

Wouldn't this apply? Rule 3.2.1

A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted
 at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing 
will  take  precedence  over  any  course  of  fire  information  published  or  
otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it 
must provide the following minimum information:
— Scoring Method:
— Targets (type & number):
— Minimum number of rounds:
— The handgun ready condition:
— Start position:
— Time starts: audible or visual signal:
— Procedure:
 

Edited July 3, 2018 by stick

[MikeBurgess]

Yes you can say the treadmill is a shooting area, how do you penalize me for not standing on the part of it that's moving?

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[MikeBurgess]

I guess you could use 1.1.5.2 and run a standard exercise from the moving belt of the treadmill. But then it needs to be multiple strings and Virginia count or Fixed time.



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[Flatland Shooter]

Though its use is discouraged, Rule 3.2.6.1 Forbidden Action could be used.

[MikeBurgess]

You may only declare a forbidden action for safety reasons not to compel shooter actions

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[DKorn]

Can’t you just declare “the belt of the treadmill” as a shooting area instead of “the treadmill”? 

[MikeBurgess]

56 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Can’t you just declare “the belt of the treadmill” as a shooting area instead of “the treadmill”? 

you can say that, but if a shooter touches the rest of the treadmill how do you penalize them? are they faulting?  The rest of the treadmill is in contact with and attached to the belt so if I stand on that its just like standing on a fault line. 

[DKorn]

I would say that under 10.2.1, “A competitor who fires shots while ... stepping on an object beyond a shooting box” is subject to procedural penalties. Note that this is separate from “gain[ing] support or stability from any object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a shooting box”, so I would allow the competitor to gain support from the handrails unless specifically stated otherwise in the written stage briefing. 

 

Although, I would also argue that if we are treating the moving surface (belt) of the treadmill as a shooting area or box, then the rest of the treadmill is essentially the ground and should be treated as a separate object even though they are internally connected by the mechanism. That part, however, is completely debatable and I could see the RM or arbitration committee disagreeing, in which case I would naturally defer to their ruling as always. 

 

In either case, we could state in the WSB that “No shots may be fired while touching any part of the treadmill other than the moving belt.” In this case, we could give a procedural under 10.2.2 to anyone who fails to comply with this instruction in the WSB. 

[MikeBurgess]

51 minutes ago, DKorn said:

I would say that under 10.2.1, “A competitor who fires shots while ... stepping on an object beyond a shooting box” is subject to procedural penalties. Note that this is separate from “gain[ing] support or stability from any object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a shooting box”, so I would allow the competitor to gain support from the handrails unless specifically stated otherwise in the written stage briefing. 

 

Although, I would also argue that if we are treating the moving surface (belt) of the treadmill as a shooting area or box, then the rest of the treadmill is essentially the ground and should be treated as a separate object even though they are internally connected by the mechanism. That part, however, is completely debatable and I could see the RM or arbitration committee disagreeing, in which case I would naturally defer to their ruling as always. 

 

In either case, we could state in the WSB that “No shots may be fired while touching any part of the treadmill other than the moving belt.” In this case, we could give a procedural under 10.2.2 to anyone who fails to comply with this instruction in the WSB. 

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended.

 

sorry the belt can not be a shooting box

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by MikeBurgess

[MikeBurgess]

52 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

In either case, we could state in the WSB that “No shots may be fired while touching any part of the treadmill other than the moving belt.” In this case, we could give a procedural under 10.2.2 to anyone who fails to comply with this instruction in the WSB. 

unfortunately we can do many many things with a WSB but that is not something I think we can

That is like saying touching a wall in a shooting area is not permitted or the fault line may not be touched. I don"t believe the WSB can change existing rules 

 

 

[motosapiens]

I'm not sure I agree Mike. We declare teeter-totters to be shooting areas.

 

It seems to me the belt of the treadmill provides both physical and visual references to competitors, and it's NOT attached to the rest of the treadmill, so it seems reasonable to declare the rest of the treadmill out of bounds and call it a per-shot procedural for standing anywhere other than on the moving belt, just like if I stand on the center pivot of a teeter-totter.'

 

Might make an exception in the wsb to allow competitors to touch the hand railing for support.

[MikeBurgess]

35 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I'm not sure I agree Mike. We declare teeter-totters to be shooting areas.

 

It seems to me the belt of the treadmill provides both physical and visual references to competitors, and it's NOT attached to the rest of the treadmill, so it seems reasonable to declare the rest of the treadmill out of bounds and call it a per-shot procedural for standing anywhere other than on the moving belt, just like if I stand on the center pivot of a teeter-totter.'

 

Might make an exception in the wsb to allow competitors to touch the hand railing for support.

 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size.

find a treadmill with a 3/4" thick belt and I think you are good to go 

[HoMiE]

29 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size.

find a treadmill with a 3/4" thick belt and I think you are good to go 

Why not just build a 3/4” inch box around treadmill and put it so you have to stand inside of belt of treadmill? 

[MikeBurgess]

20 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Why not just build a 3/4” inch box around treadmill and put it so you have to stand inside of belt of treadmill? 

 because Ill stand on the edge of the box like I do every other fault line or shooting box

[HoMiE]

24 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 because Ill stand on the edge of the box like I do every other fault line or shooting box

OH gotcha

[johnbu]

Gamers!

 

You make it difficult to have a fun stage

[johnbu]

So we set up the club's "free" treadmill and several of us shot.  sadly, the machine wasn't able to maintain the low speed with our larger shooters.

 

Rats.  need to scrub the idea for now.

[Sdlrodeo]

On 7/3/2018 at 11:39 AM, MikeBurgess said:

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended.

 

sorry the belt can not be a shooting box

 

 

Mike, 

 

What part of the ruling indicates it cannot be a shooting box? If you are applying the “fixed firmly in place” wording,

I immediately think of wobble bridges which are used quite frequently. If you are talking about the “.75 inch material” wording, that could be construed to only be necessary for “hard ground surfaces”. The 1.5” could be read as necessary for “other range surfaces such as covered with turf, sand, gravel...” which the belt of the treadmill does not qualify as any.

 

Therefore one could argue that non of those apply to the treadmill. One could also argue that the fact the belt is moving is providing “physical and visual reference” especially if painted. 

 

I was then thinking that a tactile/visual ‘border’ was the intent of the rule. That brings another type of “shooting area” to mind: raised planks (think ballance beams). I’ve seen these a few times. They don’t have borders that are raised, the shooting area is itself basically a raised border that really doesn’t have a border, only an edge to fall off of.

 

Interesting discussion for sure. We haven’t even gotten into the safety aspect of it. 

[MikeBurgess]

On 8/23/2018 at 8:29 PM, Sdlrodeo said:

 

Mike, 

 

What part of the ruling indicates it cannot be a shooting box? If you are applying the “fixed firmly in place” wording,

I immediately think of wobble bridges which are used quite frequently. If you are talking about the “.75 inch material” wording, that could be construed to only be necessary for “hard ground surfaces”. The 1.5” could be read as necessary for “other range surfaces such as covered with turf, sand, gravel...” which the belt of the treadmill does not qualify as any.

 

Therefore one could argue that non of those apply to the treadmill. One could also argue that the fact the belt is moving is providing “physical and visual reference” especially if painted. 

 

I was then thinking that a tactile/visual ‘border’ was the intent of the rule. That brings another type of “shooting area” to mind: raised planks (think ballance beams). I’ve seen these a few times. They don’t have borders that are raised, the shooting area is itself basically a raised border that really doesn’t have a border, only an edge to fall off of.

 

Interesting discussion for sure. We haven’t even gotten into the safety aspect of it. 

Must be fixed firmly in place pretty much wraps it up,

 

in my experience the wobbly bridges have a platform with a fixed fault line on the platform, so the fault line is fixed firmly in place in relation to the object it is on, but I also think there are some deficiency's in the wording of that rule in relation to wobbly bridges because whatever is beyond that fault line is also attached to it so you cant fault for touching it anyway, but regardless of wording we have all chosen to accept this and just shoot the stage as is. On the planks and balance beam issue there are regularly issues at matches when they try to say that you can only stand on this part or that part of the assembly but not on these other parts, but like wobbly bridges we often just do as we are told rather than insist that the stage be run to the letter of the rule book.

 

 

[OnceACowboy]

Not be a wet blanket but ... shooter so focused downrange he slips off the back ..... shooter so focused downrange he places on foot on the non-moving rail while the other foot is on moving tread?  I've seen both happen at the fitness center and the results could have been bad if he had a loaded pistol in his hand.