Moving from Weaver to Iso stance

[Seif26]

I think I know the best answer to my question here (practice and repetition) but I thought I would ask for some intermediate tips.

 

As a non-competitive shooter I have used the weaver stance or something similar for the past 20 years.  Now I am starting USPSA/3gun and I have been trying to move to an Iso stance but having some issues.  Something I find I am doing quite often especially when trying to shoot faster is as the pistol returns from recoil it starts to drift left of center or left of my previous point of aim.  If I try not to move my head/eyes it looks like the front sight will get hidden behind the left rear sight (right handed shooter) and I need to twist a touch to the right to get back on center target.

 

If I pick up my pistol (G17, but also with others) take one shot, put it down, pick it up one shot, etc. I am keep the shots relatively in the center but when I follow up I tend to walk the shots out to the left.  This is maybe 1-2" at 7yds and then 3"-6" at 20yds.  

 

Anyone else go through this and have any tips?  

[perttime]

First thought: practice very deliberate shooting of two shots. It is not a double. It is two aimed shots. Forget speed and splits for a while. Only fire the second shot when you have visual confirmation.

 

Unlearning something that you have done for a long time takes a lot of repetitions. It is so easy to lapse to the old thing when under pressure.

[scgun]

if your fundamentals (grip, trigger) are okay, maybe you just have to relearn your index/npoa.

 

[jkrispies]

I also had to unlearn the Weaver stance (actually, the Chapman stance, but basically the same thing) awhile ago, and I know it's tough and takes time.  Probably the reason your point of impact is shifting to the side when "shooting for real" is that you haven't yet given up the Weaver push/pull and are reverting back to it under the stress of multiple shots vs. single-shots.  Eliminating the push/pull is the trick.  Yes, you're holding the gun with strength, but you're relaxing your arms in the sense that there should be no real battle between the two arms.  The ultimate downfall of the Weaver/Chapman is that when you are doing the push/pull under stress, your strong side is going to win the battle and the gun is going to push someplace other than where you want it to go.  

 

Your willingness to change is perfect for more reasons than just picking a better stance.  If an athlete is to grow into their most competitive self, it's important for the athlete to embrace the fact that their technique is fluid and will change both as the sport changes, but more importantly as their abilities improve.  There's a lot of art in athletics, and this is an example of it.

 

You mention that you shoot 3 gun?  I've never seen you hold a rifle, so this is a bit of a shot in the dark (drum hit on that pun please?) but this is what I show new pistol shooters who have rifle experience when teaching them my version of a proper isosceles stance...  

 

Have them take a normal off-hand rifle stance with their shoulders and hips pretty well squared off to the target.  They should hold the rifle with a "modern forward grip" on the forearm that is comfortably "out there" but not forcing the shooter to feel like he or she is stretching.  A little bend in the elbow is okay, and they should be holding the forearm with their support hand so that their index finger is laid flat on the side of the tube and pointing at the target.  Once they look good on the rifle in this stance, I tell them to freeze and hold their position.  I carefully remove the rifle from their hands as they stand there like a mannequin, then take their firing hand and place the pistol in it, bringing it up to their outstretched support hand, and get the gun into a proper grip without moving their support hand from the position it was in while holding the rifle.  That is their isoceles stance for now-- it may modify as they develop their own style of shooting, but that's the starting point.

 

More often, the new shooter is already accomplished with the isosceles stance on pistols and wants to learn how to hold a rifle.  In that case, I reverse the process outlined above.

 

The benefit of doing it like this is that there's a standardization in your stance between the rifle and pistol, which helps in seamlessly transitioning between platforms, at least in my opinion.

 

Hope that helps some,

J

[Seif26]

17 hours ago, scgun said:

if your fundamentals (grip, trigger) are okay, maybe you just have to relearn your index/npoa.

 

 

I am not confident I am good to go on the fundamentals.  There could be something there......

 

17 hours ago, jkrispies said:

I also had to unlearn the Weaver stance (actually, the Chapman stance, but basically the same thing) awhile ago, and I know it's tough and takes time.  Probably the reason your point of impact is shifting to the side when "shooting for real" is that you haven't yet given up the Weaver push/pull and are reverting back to it under the stress of multiple shots vs. single-shots.  Eliminating the push/pull is the trick.  Yes, you're holding the gun with strength, but you're relaxing your arms in the sense that there should be no real battle between the two arms.  The ultimate downfall of the Weaver/Chapman is that when you are doing the push/pull under stress, your strong side is going to win the battle and the gun is going to push someplace other than where you want it to go.  

 

This is something I will definitely check out the next time I am shooting.  

 

21 hours ago, perttime said:

First thought: practice very deliberate shooting of two shots. It is not a double. It is two aimed shots. Forget speed and splits for a while. Only fire the second shot when you have visual confirmation.

 

Unlearning something that you have done for a long time takes a lot of repetitions. It is so easy to lapse to the old thing when under pressure.

 

I was looking for drill or things I can do when I shoot and this is definitely something I will try.  

 

Thanks to all for the feedback!  I have taken some lessons from my local range but think sooner rather than later I need to move to lessons from a competitive shooter who understands what is needed to go from where I am at to semi-competent. 

 

[TimH]

9 hours ago, Seif26 said:

 

I am not confident I am good to go on the fundamentals.  There could be something there......

 

 

This is something I will definitely check out the next time I am shooting.  

 

 

I was looking for drill or things I can do when I shoot and this is definitely something I will try.  

 

Thanks to all for the feedback!  I have taken some lessons from my local range but think sooner rather than later I need to move to lessons from a competitive shooter who understands what is needed to go from where I am at to semi-competent. 

 

Where are you located? if you're relatively close, perhaps I can help. Depending where you are, I may be able to recommend someone as well!

[TonytheTiger]

It might be worth trying to forget stances altogether. If you believe it necessary to come to a full stop mid stage and arrange your legs and arms and torso in a specific manner before you can shoot you're off to a bad start. 

A ton of your shooting will be crouching through low ports, on your toes for high ones, leaning around walls and lots of shooting while moving.

None of these things will agree with a rigid stance doctrine.

Think of it like riding a motorcycle. You can't just sit upright and turn the bars and expect to efficiently get around. You have to be able to move your body and lean with the bike if you ever want to be smooth and fluid.

[lacivilian]

I have said this to multiple people, stance doesn't mean sh**. Stability is what is more important than a perfect stance. Keeping your knees always bent and lowering your center of gravity is twice as important over a stage than any stance ever will be. Consider a right handed person shooting around wall on the right side, the proper stance would be right foot forward for stability rather than a normal left foot forward stance. This game makes you shoot in uncomfortable stances that are different than static shooting. As long as you can move SMOOTH through a stage it does not matter which stance you have. Most shooting in USPSA is not static and requires balance above all else. The best thing to work on is staying low throughout a stage, never coming into a standing position when you enter a position and begin to fire. This wastes time for your first shot and how quickly you can exit a position. While it feels un natural to do so, it is always faster to stay on your toes and keep as much stability as possible. 

[RangerTrace]

21 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

It might be worth trying to forget stances altogether. If you believe it necessary to come to a full stop mid stage and arrange your legs and arms and torso in a specific manner before you can shoot you're off to a bad start. 

A ton of your shooting will be crouching through low ports, on your toes for high ones, leaning around walls and lots of shooting while moving.

None of these things will agree with a rigid stance doctrine.

Think of it like riding a motorcycle. You can't just sit upright and turn the bars and expect to efficiently get around. You have to be able to move your body and lean with the bike if you ever want to be smooth and fluid.

^^^^this.

[Seif26]

I didn't know the location wasn't enable - Clarkston, MI which is a bit outside MO

 

My biggest issue is the consistent pull/push to the left and my self diagnosis that I am mixing a weaver/iso arm extension so that when the gun returns from recoil I start to bring my right wrist back in line with my right forearm.  It could be as simple as just making sure my left elbow stays higher and doesn't tuck in?  Again, I just starting back up and hope to get some real time feedback from team and squadmates in the near future.

 

Copied and understood on the stance feedback.  

[jkrispies]

11 minutes ago, Seif26 said:

My biggest issue is the consistent pull/push to the left and my self diagnosis that I am mixing a weaver/iso arm extension so that when the gun returns from recoil I start to bring my right wrist back in line with my right forearm.  It could be as simple as just making sure my left elbow stays higher and doesn't tuck in?  

Self-analysis is a good thing!

[perttime]

Sure, people shoot in many kinds of positions, depending on what the stage requires. Still, the things that the arms and top of the body do remains pretty much the same. Those things are very different between "Weaver" and "isosceles". In "Weaver", you are applying opposing forces with the arms, which easily gets very rigid and tense. "Isosceles" basically has you in a fairly relaxed and flexible position, holding the pistol in front of your eyes. You are still holding the pistol but you are not fighting it. The pressures in "isosceles" are more equal and symmetrical, and you can maintain that "turret" in a variety of positions.