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Struggling with 25 yd groups


AF2010

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Looking for some tips on tightening up groups at 25 yards.

 

I can make 25 yard head shots all day long, but when I try to shoot groups on the body, I struggle to stay in the A zone... I find myself searching for a consistent aiming point but its just not there.

 

Anyone else deal with this at some point?

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5 minutes ago, AF2010 said:

 

I can make 25 yard head shots, but I struggle to stay in the A zone

 

Wow.  You're Way Ahead of me - I doubt I could keep all shots in the head at 25 yards    :(

 

Have you tried "aiming" at the point 12" below the head ?   That specific enough for you ?

 

How large are your 25 yard A zone groups?

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3 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Wow.  You're Way Ahead of me - I doubt I could keep all shots in the head at 25 yards    :(

 

Have you tried "aiming" at the point 12" below the head ?   That specific enough for you ?

 

How large are your 25 yard A zone groups?

My 25 yard A Zone groups earlier today kept opening up no more than about 2-3 inches outside of A zone on either side. I ended up stapling an index card and shooting at that with good results. I found that I could really dial in and focus on sight alignment on the card and Had enough hits on the card to be satisfied. Even the worst hits were still in the A zone.

 

About aiming below the head... I guess I didn't put a lot of thought into that. I just kept pointing to what I thought was centered and firing.

 

I feel like the kid in school learning to read with the little line marker so he doesn't lose his spot lol

 

All is good with something precise to aim at... take that away and I'm all over the place

 

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Would be interesting to have someone video you and see if it is really your aiming. Folks tend to do a better job with trigger control when attempting to hit a small target, if it is a trigger control issue then you are not seeing the front sight lift (else you would already have figured it out). 

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Hope this isn't too far afield from your question, but what size groups do you really need to shoot at 25 yards for USPSA?

 

I'd say if at your match speed you're keeping most shots in the A, and no misses at 25 yards, that's good enough.

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1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Would be interesting to have someone video you and see if it is really your aiming. Folks tend to do a better job with trigger control when attempting to hit a small target, if it is a trigger control issue then you are not seeing the front sight lift (else you would already have figured it out). 

I think you are right. Next time I'll put more into trigger control and see what happens

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On 7/1/2018 at 8:22 PM, AF2010 said:

Looking for some tips on tightening up groups at 25 yards.

 

I can make 25 yard head shots all day long, but when I try to shoot groups on the body, I struggle to stay in the A zone... I find myself searching for a consistent aiming point but its just not there.

 

Anyone else deal with this at some point?

It's a visual acuity issue. Learning to switch gears with your vision and accepting a different overall sight picture. At longer distances, we make the mistake of trying to acutely align/center the front sight with center of the target, but really loose point of reference of where "center" of the target is. This is where pulling back our vision slightly to accept a broader sight alignment by including the overall rear sight as a means of "cutting" the target in half. Also aligning the rear blade with the entire target now allows you to then focus centering the front sight into rear notch and firing the shot.

 

Does any of this make some sense, or does it sound like aimless ramble? LOL 

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1 hour ago, TimH said:

It's a visual acuity issue. Learning to switch gears with your vision and accepting a different overall sight picture. At longer distances, we make the mistake of trying to acutely align/center the front sight with center of the target, but really loose point of reference of where "center" of the target is. This is where pulling back our vision slightly to accept a broader sight alignment by including the overall rear sight as a means of "cutting" the target in half. Also aligning the rear blade with the entire target now allows you to then focus centering the front sight into rear notch and firing the shot.

 

Does any of this make some sense, or does it sound like aimless ramble? LOL 

Lol WOW. You win.

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On 7/1/2018 at 6:22 PM, AF2010 said:

Looking for some tips on tightening up groups at 25 yards.

 

I can make 25 yard head shots all day long, but when I try to shoot groups on the body, I struggle to stay in the A zone... I find myself searching for a consistent aiming point but its just not there.

 

Anyone else deal with this at some point?

Forget about an aiming point and instead focus on keeping the sights perfectly aligned while smoothly pulling the trigger till the shot breaks.

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4 hours ago, benos said:

Forget about an aiming point and instead focus on keeping the sights perfectly aligned while smoothly pulling the trigger till the shot breaks.

 

What's the equivalent when shooting a red dot?

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On 7/3/2018 at 5:26 PM, TimH said:

It's a visual acuity issue. Learning to switch gears with your vision and accepting a different overall sight picture. At longer distances, we make the mistake of trying to acutely align/center the front sight with center of the target, but really loose point of reference of where "center" of the target is. This is where pulling back our vision slightly to accept a broader sight alignment by including the overall rear sight as a means of "cutting" the target in half. Also aligning the rear blade with the entire target now allows you to then focus centering the front sight into rear notch and firing the shot.

 

Does any of this make some sense, or does it sound like aimless ramble? LOL 

Am I right in think you mean to use the sights as reference on the target, to include the rear?  Essentially lining up something other that front post in notch.  

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6 minutes ago, hrhawk said:

Am I right in think you mean to use the sights as reference on the target, to include the rear?   

 

Depends on the size / distance of the target.

 

Larger/closer may use only indexing the barrel, and further/smaller

may require the full use of a "target shooting" type of sighting.    :) 

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On 7/3/2018 at 4:26 PM, TimH said:

It's a visual acuity issue. Learning to switch gears with your vision and accepting a different overall sight picture. At longer distances, we make the mistake of trying to acutely align/center the front sight with center of the target, but really loose point of reference of where "center" of the target is. This is where pulling back our vision slightly to accept a broader sight alignment by including the overall rear sight as a means of "cutting" the target in half. Also aligning the rear blade with the entire target now allows you to then focus centering the front sight into rear notch and firing the shot.

 

Does any of this make some sense, or does it sound like aimless ramble? LOL 

Wow. That is the most valuable advice I've ever been given. Never would have considered using the rear sight in this way. Thank you

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On 7/3/2018 at 5:48 PM, benos said:

Forget about an aiming point and instead focus on keeping the sights perfectly aligned while smoothly pulling the trigger till the shot breaks.

Thank you sir.

Looking forward to utilizing yours and Tim's advice this weekend and working through this little rut im im

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On 7/3/2018 at 8:11 PM, wdfwguy said:

 

What's the equivalent when shooting a red dot?

I'm not sure there is an equivalent. Because with a red dot, you should be always focused on the target.

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Something that’s helped me in the past is pinning the trigger to the rear. Reset, pin to the rear. Make the cadence 1.5 seconds. I doubt the groups are not tight from what you are visually seeing... I would bet money on it being in the trigger pull

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On 7/5/2018 at 2:54 PM, hrhawk said:

Am I right in think you mean to use the sights as reference on the target, to include the rear?  Essentially lining up something other that front post in notch.  

Yep! that's precisely what I mean. 

 

Whew, I was hoping that would make sense LOL

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9 hours ago, Blurryvisions said:

Something that’s helped me in the past is pinning the trigger to the rear. Reset, pin to the rear. Make the cadence 1.5 seconds.

 

If you’re both pinning the trigger and shooting a specific cadence then I would enjoy watching you shoot a tight group at 25 yards in person.

 

Because you’d be the first one I’ve seen who uses those practices who can shoot straight. Ever.

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5 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

If you’re both pinning the trigger and shooting a specific cadence then I would enjoy watching you shoot a tight group at 25 yards in person.

 

Because you’d be the first one I’ve seen who uses those practices who can shoot straight. Ever.

You must not have ever been around a good shooter then... who cares about 25 yard groups anyway. If you are trying to get a Glock to group at 25 yards I would smile and say good day to you sir ?

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