IDPA order of engagement very close steel

[borneoknives]

i recently shot a match where there were two poppers with one basically 4 feet behind the other.

 

We were told that the one in front was to be engaged as part of a closer array (tactical priority or whatever)  and the one behind it was part of the next array.

As such a miss on the first one that accidentally hit the second would be considered a penalty.

 

this seemed odd/incorrect to us as they were so close to one another.

 

thoughts?

[DKorn]

You might try posting this under the IDPA rules section- don’t know if maybe a moderator can move it over. 

 

That said, I’m not sure how this should be handled, but I probably would ask the match director about it if I was the SO, and bring up the concern before it actually comes up. 

[9x45]

This is USPSA/IPSC, not IDPA. Ask the IDPA guys on their forum...

[ac4wordplay]

1 hour ago, borneoknives said:

i recently shot a match where there were two poppers with one basically 4 feet behind the other.

 

We were told that the one in front was to be engaged as part of a closer array (tactical priority or whatever)  and the one behind it was part of the next array.

As such a miss on the first one that accidentally hit the second would be considered a penalty.

 

this seemed odd/incorrect to us as they were so close to one another.

 

thoughts?

 

Hopefully mods will move this to the IDPA rules section so that some people don't keep getting upset...

 

As to the OP: as described, it sounds like terrible stage design. Ugh! I'd be suspicious of the quality of such a match, and would probably choose to shoot elsewhere.

[borneoknives]

sorry about posting in the wrong section. i was clearly too tired to be internetting

[Joe4d]

Prime example of why shooters have a responsibility to read the rule book. 
Read section 3.2 of the rule book, it spells out the different scenarios pretty well.
Few things could change things. Was it basically 4 feet or was it 4 feet ? cause if it was 6 feet, makes it completely different.
Also was it a cover pie slice issue ? Again a variable that needs to be defined.
IF the targets were closer than 6 feet and both became visible at the same time, then No you cant penalize the shooter.

[stick]

 Not to be negative, but ...Another reason I don't shoot IDPA anymore.  

[rowdyb]

Rule 3.2.2 reads in part:

Targets are considered equal threat when the difference in the target distances to the shooter is less than 2 yards.

 

As it sounds you were shooting near to far, if the two pieces of steel were indeed within 4' of each other relative to you the shooter (less than the 6" that would make them of differing priority for engagement) they were equal priority. NO penalty could have been assessed for shooting the rear plate first by accident or intent.

 

Something I've posted in jest but like Homer Simpson says, it's funny because it's true, is that the best self defense item at an idpa match isn't the gun on your hip but the rule book in your bag. Read it and highlight things like this that come up often, scoring and shooting rules, so you get a deserved and correct call.

 

Through time, culture and rule book issues there is to often the attitude of doing/allowing things how the so, stage designer, md or whomever wants to rather than following the rules.

Edited June 25, 2018 by rowdyb

[daytona955i]

Were there paper or other targets that were within 2 yards relative to your position to the nearer group of poppers?

 

If so, and you hadn't engaged them yet, engaging something within 2 yards beyond the first set of poppers could incure a penalty. If they were set close enough for a miss to hit one, you shouldn't get a penalty based on reasonable doubt.

[Jim Watson]

Sounds to me like a 6.6.5 Memory Stage.  If I can see two Poppers from one fault line, I don't think you can tell me to remember to shoot one but not the other.

[BillR1]

We had a stage with this situation at our local IDPA match on Saturday. The two poppers were in front of each other and less than 3 feet apart. However, from the fault line/POC the poppers were slightly angled and the front popper was just outside of the rear one. Slicing the pie required this one to be engaged first.

Edited July 10, 2018 by BillR1

[rooster cogburn]

• No steel targets can be shot at closer than  10 yards. No more than 25% of shots on a string will be on steel. No more than 10%of total shots in a match for steel targets.

[pskys2]

Being as it was in another array it should have not been visible as IDPA's whole concept is based on engaging targets/threats as they are visible.  Part of the whole slice the pie issues.  

 

In USPSA if it was a required target from another position it would have been a range failure, and really frowned on as a stage design.

 

In IDPA "6.6.5 Memory stages are prohibited in all IDPA stages and strings of fire. A memory stage is any stage where one must
remember the order of engagement, or other shooting restrictions that are not intuitive to the shooter based on
the design of the stage."

I'd argue that a visible target close to another target is not intuitive to NOT engage, i.e. it would be reasonable to expect to engage it from the 1st position.

But it is IDPA.