Benelli M2 Field - Intermittent Cycling Problem - Carrier End catching on Shell Lip.

[paknon2wheels]

Hello, I am in need of knowledgeable advice on my New Tuned Benelli M2 Field.

I have searched this Forum and the internet trying to find a similar problem as I have with my Benelli M2 Field, and I can’t seem to find anything that is exactly the same. I am ATTEMPTING to use the Shotgun in 3 Gun Competition. I have went through at least 700 rounds trying to sort this problem out.

THE PROBLEM: Every so often the Carrier End gets stuck on the Lip of the Shell and Jams the shotgun up. It’s as if the Carrier is not dropping all the way down before the shell is being released from the Magazine. (Timing Issue?) The problem is intermittent. It can happen on the First shot, halfway through the Magazine Tube, or the next to last round or anywhere in between.

On advice from the Builder, I have lightly sanded on the edges on the Back of the Carrier Latch where the Carrier Drop Lever interacts and cut off 1 Coil on the Carrier Latch Spring. Neither of these solved my problem.

I returned the Shotgun to the Builder who looked it over and shot some ammo through it and said everything seemed fine. Upon receiving the Shotgun back I went out last Friday and ran two boxes of ammo through it without a problem. I went to a match on Sunday and had the Failure approximately 6 times before giving up with it.

I have tried different Magazine Lengths and and 3 Brand New Springs, so I don’t thing it’s a Magazine Spring issue. Running a +9 Magazine Tube with 48” spring. This is NOT a problem with the shell just SETTING on the Carrier.

I am using Remington Premier Nitro Sporting Clays 2 ¾ - 3 1/4DR - 1 1/8OZ- 1300 FPS – with 7 1/2 or 8 shot OR Winchester AA Super Sport: 2¾ - 3 1/4DR - 1 1/8OZ- 1300 FPS – with 7 1/2 or 8 shot.

I am fairly new to semi-auto shotguns in general, and I am working on learning the names of parts and the terminology, so please bare with me. I have been a professional mechanic for 30+ years, so I am not afraid to take it apart and work on it, but I need some direction. In taking the M2 apart, I have found several things that don’t seem 100% right to me, but I have no way of knowing what is normal and what is not.

If someone has seen this before, and can tell me what the problem is that would be great. If more information is needed I will do my best to provide it.

Thank you,

Dale

Edited June 12, 2018 by paknon2wheels

[mrhoppy]

If I were having this issue I would be looking to swap the whole trigger group. Do you have a friend with an M2 who you can lend a trigger group from?

Process of elimination, and there’s many parts there to rule in/out. 

If this were an M2 clone I would consider changing the cartridge drop lever. 

Thats my 2 cents. Keep us informed how it goes. 

[paknon2wheels]

Thank you for your response. I don't have anyone to swap the entire Trigger Group with. After taking this M2 apart (many times now) and looking at how all the parts interact together and the sequence of part interaction taking place,  I believe I have it narrowed down to 4 possible parts. the Hammer Bushing is out of tolerance , the Carrier Spring is weak, the Carrier itself (since it not the factory one), or the Recoil Spring is to slow to return the bolt forward.

 

When I take the Trigger Group out and let the Hammer forward, the Cartridge Drop Lever moves over far enough to let the Hammer Spring Cap and Hammer Spring come out of the Trigger Group. This does not seem right to me, but I don't have another one to compare it to. Yes the clip is on the other side of of the Bushing. LOL

 

I have ordered the Wolff Standard and XP Recoil Spring, New Hammer Bushing, New Factory Carrier, New Carrier Spring. Hopefully, all parts will be here sometime next week.

[mrhoppy]

I don’t believe an XP spring will help you. I may have it wrong but that’s for heavy loads. 

However looking at the pic the interaction between cartridge drop lever and hammer cap Spring isn’t correct. 

There is lateral movement on the bushing that goes through the drop lever/ lifter/ hammer but I can’t tell if the D clip is fitted in the slots at the end of the bushing even though you say it is. 

Remember change one part at a time, don’t just go mad. 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by mrhoppy

[mrhoppy]

End of the lifter doesn’t look great either in second pic

[mrhoppy]

[paknon2wheels]

Yeah, the D clip is in the slots, but I can still push the bushing from side to side. It looks like you have some lateral movement in your Bushing also, but not enough let the Cartridge Drop Lever move over enough to let cap and and spring go.

 

I don't really think the Recoil Spring is the problem either, but I am shooting loads a little on the heavier side and the Bolt returning is part of the process to lift the carrier. For the little bit that springs cost, I just wanted to have everything on hand that I could think of that may contribute to the problem. I would like to sort this problem out as quickly as possible without spending a fortune. I think I need to get that play out of the Bushing area before shooting it again. Just putting the Bushing or the Carrier in separately may or may not solve my problem. It may take both. I think the Carrier Spring may be on the weak side also, but I'll leave that for next to last before the Recoil Spring.

[mrhoppy]

There should be play in the trigger group when the hammer is released but not when it isn’t. 

Having said that not as much as you have in my opinion. 

A worn recoil Spring will cause a malfunction but not that malfunction in my opinion. 

I’d be interested in the bushing length if you have a vernier gauge. 

Hopefully a proper expert will be along but surely the lifter spring is a good one to change anyway. 

[paknon2wheels]

Okay, I have the total length of the Bushing at 22.90MM or .9020

[paknon2wheels]

And with the D Clip on the Bushing measuring from inside the lip to inside the D Clip at 20.90mm or .8230

Edited June 16, 2018 by paknon2wheels

[mrhoppy]

Yep those measurements are the same as mine. 

Just wondering if the strut on the drop lever that interacts with the hammer cap is 8.9 mm long from the outside edges? 

I’m surprised an expert hasn’t been along by now

[paknon2wheels]

I have about 8.83mm.

 

Yeah, I'm really surprised that some of the guys that have been shooting these M2's for years have not responded. I thought within five minutes someone would just say here is your problem, and this is what you do to fix it. Clearly that is not the case. lol

 

It could be that my explanation of the problem is not clear enough for an expert to diagnose?

Edited June 16, 2018 by paknon2wheels

[mrhoppy]

Ok so until an expert comes along I’ll have a go. 

How long have you had the gun?

If it’s new it shouldn’t need any new Springs but I would change the lifter Spring every year. 

I don’t have anywhere near the amount of play you have in trigger group so without knowing how handy you are (apart from engines) I would watch a YouTube video and disassemble/reassemble the trigger group and parts. There’s a good one by 4reverse4. 

I wouldn’t cut any springs down and wouldn’t do anything to a carrier Latch other than polish it shiny. 

 

[GunCat]

The hammer spring bushing should not be able to get beyond the cartridge drop lever with the pin bushing and D spring installed. That may the cause of the lifter timing and letting the shell rim hang (shell lifter movement delayed as shell exits the magazine tube).

 

I have seen this issues once before, but in that case it was a well worn, well used SBE with the aluminum trigger group housing. The hole for the hammer spring and bushing had worn to the point that the spring bushing was moving side to side allowing the bushing to move past the tip of the cartridge drop lever when the the hammer fell. A new trigger group housing fixed the issue....but I do not expect your housing has worn to that extent.

 

Try the new hammer spring bushing when you get it and lets see if that fixes the issue of the parts getting past the tip of the cartridge drop lever.

[paknon2wheels]

Thank you for your response. I agree that the Bushing should not be worn enough to be causing this issue. The Shotgun is basically brand new (700-800 rounds) through it. I purchased it brand new and sent directly to the Builder. I have had this issue since the first time I ran it hard. According to mrhoppy we have the same specs on Hammer Bushing length, so I'm not sure at this point that the Bushing is the problem, but I didn't have mrhoppy's information at the time and wanted to cover all possibilities.

 

What I have done over this past week, is (slightly) bend the side of the Carrier on the side with the Breech Bolt Latch out away from the Trigger Group Housing and that has taken out the slop with the bushing and now the Cartridge Drop Lever does not move over enough to let the Spring and Spring Cap slip by. Of course now there is a gap between the Trigger Group Housing and the Carrier on that side. In my opinion, I should not have to bend the Carrier like that, so maybe the Carrier is out of spec. Hopefully, I will have a factory Carrier here sometime this week to give me something to go off of.

 

If the new Bushing is the same specs as this one I currently have then that will remove that from the equation.

 

I could possibly understand the Carrier Spring being weak as I have not shot the shotgun all that much, but I have practiced loading probably thousands and thousands of rounds which is moving the Carrier Spring every time. However, even the Carrier Spring being weak, does not solve my issue with the lateral movement of the Bushing, Carrier, Cartridge Drip Lever area.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by paknon2wheels

[mike cyrwus]

 i didnt read all the above, but it looks like a shell is slipping past the shell catch (your heavy loads may be helping that)AND the carrier is tight on the trigger group AND possibly the carrier spring is weak.

 

good luck

[kurtm]

First off, the cartridge drop lever can not wobble out the way you are pushing it, when it is in the receiver. The walls of the receiver keep it from being "pushed away" from the hammer bushing.

 

Secondly "On advice from the Builder, I have lightly sanded on the edges on the Back of the Carrier Latch where the Carrier Drop Lever interacts and cut off 1 Coil on the Carrier Latch Spring. Neither of these solved my problem."   BAD ADVICE!!! Especially cutting the spring, and the sanding part. There isn't much contact between the two parts in this area, and very small changes can cause all sorts of problems.

 

Third, I have ordered the Wolff Standard and XP Recoil Spring, New Hammer Bushing, New Factory Carrier, New Carrier Spring. All good ideas...EXCEPT for the Extra Power spring! DON'T RUN THAT!!! 

 

Fourth, by bending the carrier you have now induced a whole new set of problems. The carrier needs to sit square to the trigger housing and shouldn't let the interceptor latch  wiggle side to side at all. It shouldn't drag, nor should it wobble about. Yours is WAY OUT!

 

Fifth, if you paid someone to do this work I would send it back yet again, it isn't right!

 

Sixth, My bet is that someone got real cute with "tuning" the shell cut off lever so it would load real smooth, and it is just over the edge of holding the shell in place.......just like Mike from Accurate Iron pointed out..... or the porting is just a bit tooooo much, but that is all guess work, as I haven't seen it, nor did I build it.

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by kurtm

[paknon2wheels]

Thank you for your reply. I don't disagree with any of your assessment. At this point I would prefer to try to fix it myself if I can. I believe I can sort the problem out with some guidance from you guys.

 

So you believe the actual/original problem is the shell is slipping past the shell cut off lever? I have a factory Carrier,  Hammer Bushing and Carrier Spring on the way, so I will take the Carrier out that I have bent, so that won't be a problem. I will not use the Wolff XP Spring as you suggest.

 

If you believe the shell is slipping past the cut off lever, I should be able to bend that in a little towards the shell and put in the new Carrier, and Carrier Spring and try it out.

 

Looking for advice if you think I should do something different.

 

Thank you.

[joeymdz]

Where is your bolt release spring located? forward by the set screw, in the middle, or located in the rear by the trigger frame? Reason why I ask I accidentally had mine located by the set screw and my gun jammed all the time with the shell getting stuck pretty much the same way your pics are showing. It was great for quading but had lots of issues. Took me a bit of tinkering to find out that the spring works the best when its all the way towards the trigger frame. 

 

Hopefully this helps

Edited November 1, 2018 by joeymdz

[Lefty1121]

Hey guys, I know I'm late to this discussion but I had this exact problem just recently. I was one of those guys who got "too cute" with the shell catch. I had to dremel out the grooves (made it a little more flexible) and bend it some just to be able to load it. It otherwise would have required gorilla strength to get shells in - some guns just come like that. It worked perfectly for 2 years but it finally got broke in I guess and this jamming issue started. It even dumped a full magazine (9) of dummy shells onto my thumb as if in auto fire. Bloody mess!  Well, anyway, I took it out, put it in the vise and bent it a little and it's working fine again.

[TSI]

Here's my issue:

I have a 2 year old meticulously maintained M2 field lefty 12 with maybe 1500 rounds through it.  Last week while shooting doubles the 2nd shell was not being grabbed from out of the magazine tube.  Had 3 failures in the round of 50.  Took it home, cleaned it and fired 100 rounds 3 at a time flawlessly.  Nothing new same shells.  Used Rios, Federals, and Nobels.  Any ideas?