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High number of Failure to Fires with reloaded ammo using VVN340


MsDV8

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20 hours ago, HesedTech said:

I respect those who love reloading, the experimenting with loads and all the gadgets that goes with that side of the hobby. I too find myself getting into these things, but my main purpose for reloading is making large amounts of ammo that work in my guns so I can shoot. Oh and it really doesn’t save me any money over buying factory ammo. 

 

Additionally I love the test of each match, local and greater, and how they reveal my preparedness and practice qualities. Yes I socialize, have fun running and gunning and, for me, it’s not about beating the local hot shot. 

 

My point was, except it or not, was I learn from every event something new about my self and my process. My comment was not meant to be a diss. I’m sorry if you took it that way. 

 

Enjoy the hobby and make it what you want it to be.

Thank you!  I didn’t perceive it as a diss, perhaps a little patronizing.  I’m not new to shooting by any means.  Reloading, handguns and competitions yes, and my focus on competitions is fun and doing it safely, if it stops being fun or I get too many lectures on how I should be doing things, like being given “absolutes”, such as the “only” way to lower a hammer on a live round, then I start to lose interest in group activities.  Some folks out there think that their way is the only correct way either because that’s how they were taught and have then accepted it as fact.  Dare I throw out the term alternate facts here?  Hahah.

 

This was a good YouTube video on primers.  Basically he’s saying that when the primer is seated as far as it will go into the pocket, that’s as far as it’s going to go.  So maybe this is the case with the CCI primers, they are going into once fired Blazer Brass cases and one fired Winchester cases and neither of those companies use CCI primers, but I don’t think I’m going to switch because they are working for me, even if they are sitting flush with the case.

 

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Basicallyhe’s saying that when the primer is seated as far as it will go into the pocket, that’s as far as it’s going to go.”

 

I agree with you on this 100 %. My primers actually get flattened a bit by the press after they seat. 

 

Thank you for the comment. 

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12 hours ago, HesedTech said:

I’m long past the simple single stage press days with somewhere near $4k + or - in just the reloading gear. Yes the raw cost of bullet, powder, primer and brass is around $.15 for 9mm. When do I break even on the reloading gear? 

 

If I save $.10 per cartridge over factory it will take somewhere near 40k rounds before I might break even. 

 

Yes one can do it for less, but at a bit slower rate. Basically I did not start reloading to save money, I do it to get the ammo I want for my guns.

 

As I wrote the hobby include gadgets and other cool stuff. 

 

I'm loading 9mm for under $0.055 a round.  I cast my own bullets.  If your cost to reload 9mm is $0.15 you're doing something wrong.

 

Primer $0.03

Powder $0.02  That's an expensive powder by the way.

Bullet....$0.08 as a guess.  I haven't bought bullets in a LONG time.

 

My costs are more like

 

Primer $0.02

Powder $0.008

Bullet $0.03

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@HesedTech you got $4,000 in reloading gear?  That's a hellacious setup! 

 

 

@MsDV8

- Blazer is a CCI product. So unless, I'm missing something, they were factory primed with CCI.

 

  

- $0.15 is not unheard of, especially with new brass.  Buying once fired brass & calling it lost, with my components is $0.13/rd. That's buying in bulk, without premium products. @ExStreetWalker

Edited by SCTaylor
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36 minutes ago, SCTaylor said:

@HesedTech you got $4,000 in reloading gear?  That's a hellacious setup! 

 

 

@MsDV8

- Blazer is a CCI product. So unless, I'm missing something, they were factory primed with CCI.

 

  

- $0.15 is not unheard of, especially with new brass.  Buying once fired brass & calling it lost, with my components is $0.13/rd. That's buying in bulk, without premium products. @ExStreetWalker

The primer metal used in CCI Blazer Brass is a different colour, not silver, not sure if colour of metal has anything to do with it, but the after market CCI Small Pistol Primers do not fit like the factory ammo primers, they sit flush and not the 0.05 depth of the factory primers, so I am guessing that although they are CCI primers, they are still different than the factory loads.

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Huh that's pretty interesting. I just figured CCI made one type of small pistol primer. Perhaps it's a "budget" version since Blazer is often considered a budget ammo.

 

 

Ah think I may have figured it out, CCI has a "clean-fire" primer which is more of a gold not silver.

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3 hours ago, ExStreetWalker said:

 

I'm loading 9mm for under $0.055 a round.  I cast my own bullets.  If your cost to reload 9mm is $0.15 you're doing something wrong.

 

Primer $0.03

Powder $0.02  That's an expensive powder by the way.

Bullet....$0.08 as a guess.  I haven't bought bullets in a LONG time.

 

My costs are more like

 

Primer $0.02

Powder $0.008

Bullet $0.03

Dude

 

You need to let your comments go. Some of us buy premium bullets, primers, brass and powder for competition. 

 

I have seen the Youtube videos where people sift the berm for lead, cast their bullets and powder coat em for really low cost. Some of us don’t have time for that. 

 

You really need to let your “doing something wrong” comment go. 

 

My bullets, Precision Delta .147 FMJ RN, purchased 10k at a time $.10 per, primers Federal, also 10k at a time, .035 (shipping and hazard fees included). That’s .13 per rnd before powder and brass. The best coated .147s are .07 per on sale. 

 

Your prices are very close, but as in all things, we never have 100% bullets that loaded correctly, as this thread is really all about. So your standard costs of about $.13 are close, but somewhere the cost of brass (got to seed, as in buy some, the range brass before one can pick it up) and bad loads have to be included and we arrive at approximately $.15 per round. 

 

BTW here’s a good article on why to reload:

http://schooloftrades.edu/gunsmiths-guide-reloading-ammo-vs-buying-ammo-cost-saver-or-time-waster

 

SC, When one buys a Dillon press and all the goodies it’s really easy to exceed $4k in reloading gear. When I was using a top of the line Lee progressive press I sank at least $1,500 into that set up. 

 

 

Edited by HesedTech
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1 hour ago, SCTaylor said:

Huh that's pretty interesting. I just figured CCI made one type of small pistol primer. Perhaps it's a "budget" version since Blazer is often considered a budget ammo.

 

 

Ah think I may have figured it out, CCI has a "clean-fire" primer which is more of a gold not silver.

CCI has available to commercial reloaders a primer that is brass colored and comes in a white box instead of blue, these are not readily available to the public for use, it may be  a bit more sensitive than the standard primers, but not much, I have tried a couple hundred of them that I got from a commercial reloader to shoot in my competition revolvers. I still had light strikes, about 5 in every 100, not acceptable to me for competition. 

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6 hours ago, HesedTech said:

 

4n

 

That’s a bit of a diss, isn’t it. 

 

Since it it depends on what your criteria are for “doing it right” I guess we’ll have to differ here. 

I’ve seen all the sites and comments about how to amortize the costs, and without going into detail I can assure you my professional background includes extensive financial analysis experience. 

 

So let’s just politely leave this alone and help others make quality ammo that goes bang, is accurate and provides the appropriate PF when the trigger is pulled. 

 

?

 

I don't know what a "diss" is but we can leave it at reloading saves you money, period.

 

P.S. I looks like you're the only one having a problem letting it go, lol.

Edited by 4n2t0
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12 minutes ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

I don't know what a "diss" is but we can leave it at reloading saves you money, period.

 

P.S. I looks like you're the only one having a problem letting it go, lol.

 

verb
verb: diss
  1. 1. 
    speak disrespectfully to or criticize.
    "I don't like her dissing my friends"
noun
noun: diss
  1. 1. 
    disrespectful talk.
    "the airwaves bristle with the sexual dis of shock jocks"
     
     
    I enjoy the whole shooting sport, what I don’t enjoy is when the internet turns into this ^^^
     
    yep it’s hard to let this kind of stuff go sometimes. lol back to you. 
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Been lurking on this.

 

Primers are surely the cause, and keeping primed cases about is not worth the hassle of any kind of contamination, regardless of how anal you are about storage conditions. I would clean everything out and start again. Plus not sure if anyone has suggested this. Test your guns with at least 2 good quality loads, NOT Bulk ammo from Sumso Ammo Corp, no re-manufactured either regardless of who makes it.

 

Also check that the guns have the springs in them that they left the factory with. If it fails on factory then you call the maker and get it fixed, no longer your problem.

 

I load for accuracy, and if it saves money then great. At 30K per annum of 38Super the cash savings are there. Match Grade ammo from Atlanta Arms is still $400 per 1000. There is no cheap 38Super in bulk. 9mm is a little cheaper if you buy in bulk, and they mean 10K at a time.

 

Zero 125gr JHP are about $120 - $140 per K for 10K plus orders. ($0.14 per load)

Hodg Tite group is about $150 per 8lb (4.7gr per load = $0.015 per load)

Primers run $150 per 5K ($0.03 per load)

 

So for me $17.00 to $19.00 per 100 is for me, especially when that load shoots 0.545" at 50yards. The real deal is I have X Dollars per month for ammo, the cheaper the ammo (and still hit my accuracy mark) the more I can shoot, I have never saved actual cash with reloading, it allows me to shoot more. The budget is the budget, stick to yours and make the best of it. I am bored with half arsing s#!t, just too damn old for crap.

 

I used to make my own lead pills for 38Special, 9mm and 45, just got over it. Needed more time not breathing lead fumes. I still love casting and if I need to then I may get back to it, but would rather not.

 

As for spending 4K on reloading gear, dead easy when you start cranking ammo. Dillon 1050, Decent tumbler, scales (good ones), etc, etc etc. It all depends on how you personally need to do it. Time is something not all of us have. 

 

 

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I thought someone would mention this before, but I guess not.   The CCI primer should be below the head stamp.  Paint the primer with a colored marker.  Run a razor blade across the head stamp.  If you scratch the primer, it isn't set deep enough.
 

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I don't remember reading if you are using the same headstamped brass but it could be the case you are using some brass that has a crimped primer? While once i have one that i can feel is a little tight on the priming stage of my 650 i stop and pull it out.Very carefully i use a pair of pliers and wiggle the primer out and then swage that case with a Dillon Swaging tool. What I am getting at and found almost 95 % of the time i don't have trouble priming crimped primer pockets but early on i was not swaging the case and still priming with the crimp still in it and was having some miss fires>What i found out was it was damaging the primer internally and did not let it fire. It looks OK on the outside but internally its damaged. This could be your case?Look at your misfired and see if it brass that originally had a crimp ring on the primer ?

 

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1 hour ago, foderaman said:

I don't remember reading if you are using the same headstamped brass but it could be the case you are using some brass that has a crimped primer? While once i have one that i can feel is a little tight on the priming stage of my 650 i stop and pull it out.Very carefully i use a pair of pliers and wiggle the primer out and then swage that case with a Dillon Swaging tool. What I am getting at and found almost 95 % of the time i don't have trouble priming crimped primer pockets but early on i was not swaging the case and still priming with the crimp still in it and was having some miss fires>What i found out was it was damaging the primer internally and did not let it fire. It looks OK on the outside but internally its damaged. This could be your case?Look at your misfired and see if it brass that originally had a crimp ring on the primer ?

 

I did notice that the range brass that had a headstamp of NT in addition to the maker stamp was problematic in decapping and priming, so I don’t bother with those and throw them into scrap.  The problematic brass was my own once fired brass, CCI Blazer Brass and there was no issue in priming, the CCI primers sit flush.  My Lee Breechlock Reloader arrived today and this evening I will start pulling apart the problematic loads and see what’s what, if the powder got wet or the primers didn’t ignite.  I just shot an IPSC match with brass I had pre-primed over a month ago (I put those neck side down into the plastic container that the factory loaded CCI Blazer Brass comes in).  The basement has a relatively high humidity around 60%, loaded the ammo a week ago and didn’t experience a single failure to fire during the entire match.  I’ve  been reading (and probably been told) that apparently is a no-no, pre-priming the brass, but so far no problems with that.  See pic if what I said makes no sense, lol.  I know to some it seems like a lot of extra steps, but that’s my process and it’s been up until that one batch, been working for me and I’m comfortable with it as I have better control over each step of the process.  If a primer doesn’t seat properly, it gets caught before the case gets a powder charge or a bullet seated.  Curious to see how the Lee Breech Lock does with the Hornady bullet puller, I’m hoping I won’t have to use it too often from here on.

6C304DDD-AD34-4E2B-B9CF-17D9C9795A10.jpeg

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14 hours ago, Wheeljack said:

I thought someone would mention this before, but I guess not.   The CCI primer should be below the head stamp.  Paint the primer with a colored marker.  Run a razor blade across the head stamp.  If you scratch the primer, it isn't set deep enough.
 

You need to tell the CCI Primer that, haha.  Believe me, if there was some way I could get it to squish further into the pocket I would, but the primer is only going as far as the pocket dimension and the press will allow.  And despite the primers sitting flush, they are firing without any issues,... truly.  My Shadow 2 eats them up, as evidenced by the last IPSC match I shot with every single primer sitting flush or occasionally 0.0005 or 0.001 below the headstamp.  Not one single misfire.  So this is isolated to the batch of ammunition I loaded, but I guarantee, the primer seating is not the problem.  Having said that, a kind gentleman at the match gave me 4 boxes of Dominion primers to try, he swears by them and so I am going to give them a shot.  I’m not married to CCI primers by any means, it’s just they’re readily available locally and since we only have Canadian Tire and one other store that carries supplies for reloading, that being CCI primers, selection is pretty limited.

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OK the mystery is solved.  Firstly, I need to make an endorsement.  If you haven’t gotten yourself a Hornady Bullet Puller die yet, this thing rocks.   Unless you are one of these people that never make mistakes, this die beats the hell out of those hammer type bullet pullers, but of course there is the neat trick with the vise grip pliers you could use which is also slick, but impossible to do on a Square Deal.  Barely leaves a mark on the bullets too.  So, I got my Lee Breechlock set up earlier than planned because curiosity was killing me.  Pulled the bullets from the rounds of misfired ammunition and I can unequivocally state with absolute certainty that the primers were not the issue as they were spent when I popped them out of the brass, they fired.  What did not fire was the damp powder at the bottom of the cases because dumb ass here mistakenly grabbed some recently washed brass, primed and loaded it, rather than letting it dry for weeks before priming it and then eventually loading it.  Luckily this did not occur during a match or a qualifier and lesson learned.  So to @Hi-Power Jack you hit it on the head right from the start.  Thank you to everyone that commented and responded.  I still have a pile of unfired ammo left to shoot which is probably a mix of dry powder and wet powder.  I am not going to bother with pulling the bullets on the remaining batch because 90% of that is still good, the 10% of wet powder will show up, will not fire and I’ll save those, pull the bullets on them and discard the powder.

 

6BAEE632-2784-4596-BDDF-67F28D83F0F8.jpeg

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I'm glad you figured it out. Some Federal NT (non-toxic) brass can be crimped, so you can continue to throw that brass away. It's summer time in Canada and with the warm weather we're having it only takes a few hours in the scorching hot sun to get that brass bone dry. Also, I wouldn't stop pre-priming your brass if that's what you like to do. I'm not sure why people think primers are so susceptible to contamination when they're being stored in normal conditions ?.

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15 minutes ago, 4n2t0 said:

I'm glad you figured it out. Some Federal NT (non-toxic) brass can be crimped, so you can continue to throw that brass away. It's summer time in Canada and with the warm weather we're having it only takes a few hours in the scorching hot sun to get that brass bone dry. Also, I wouldn't stop pre-priming your brass if that's what you like to do. I'm not sure why people think primers are so susceptible to contamination when they're being stored in normal conditions ?.

Thank you!  :)  I agree with everything you said!  Scorching hot is an understatement, we’re currently 14C higher than average, ugh.  After this long winter, the heat is a nice change, for awhile.  Lol.  Have a great summer!

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MsDV8, I'm glad you found the problem.  As to seating the CCI primers deep, I found that out by calling CCI and they told me to seat just below the head stamp.  So the suggestion was not mine, it was CCI's.

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I'm suspecting the primer compound got soaked and just went "pfffft" when the pin hit it. I wet tumble (without de-priming), but let my brass dry for at least 2 weeks in my climate controlled shop, I work far enough ahead that I'm never in the "I need the brass right now" situation. Been doing it this way for ~200K rounds, no failures yet. (I do case gauge every round so a lot of bad rounds get culled out. All of them so far apparently ?). Glad you found it. These things can drive one nuts.

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2 hours ago, Steve RA said:

If you deprime before wet tumbling it will really help the drying process.

 

I know, but it's an extra operation, I have no problems not doing it. Just have to give it time to dry.

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