failure to fire High number of Failure to Fires with reloaded ammo using VVN340

[MsDV8]

3 hours ago, CZ85Combat said:

You are totally over thinking reloading!  Way to many steps. you do not have to clean your brass so much , All you need to do is tumble the cases and reload.  When you prime a case you should load that case!  Reloading good ammo has lot to do with consistency.  you start and stop the process to much.   My range pickup brass I tumble for 45 minutes that's as clean as it gets. It is no where near factor.  You have had more problems in you 500 rounds then I have had In my 185,000 reloads.

Don’t I know it! 

[MsDV8]

THANK YOU everyone that has responded, I appreciate it very much as it’s super frustrating as a new reloader to experience so many failure to fire rounds, especially after a really good start.  So here’s a thought.  I had some problems with the primer feed system initially, there was a small seemingly inconsequential piece of plastic which stops the primers from all falling out at once when the handle is pushed up to seat the primer, it was missing when I first assembled the press.  I ended up dismantling the whole primer system trying to figure out what was going wrong when my primers were spewing out all over the table and the floor.  SInce I loosened that component and it’s directly tied to the prime seating, I’m assuming that depending on how tight that front face of the primer feed area is to the body of the machine makes a difference, as it limits the stroke depth of the handle which can affect the primer seating depth.  So I did tighten up the primer feed component and the primers appear to be coming out a bit higher on the die, but when I tested the bullet, the depth gauge is still reading 0 (flush with the case) or at best 0.005.  I am putting good effort into seating the primers and I can only push the handle up so far.  Is there any other way to adjust the seating depth on that press, if the seating depth is the issue?  I measured all my other non-VV340 powder loaded cases and they are all reading 0 and have been firing as they should.  I ordered a cheap Lee press today and a bullet puller die and am going to unload all the questionable ammo and see what’s what.  Thank again for the help and suggestions, super much appreciated.

[HesedTech]

If you can afford it get the Dillon 650. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

11 hours ago, MsDV8 said:

  Is there any way to adjust the seating depth, if the seating depth is the issue?

 

Great idea to try adjusting the seating depth, but when I get 2-3% high primers,

I throw them into a "Practice Only" pile and use them at the range on my own.

 

Most of them fire, though.

 

I don't use a gauge to determine if the primer's too high, I look at them down

the edge and it's easy to see if the primer is "too high".     

[ExStreetWalker]

11 hours ago, MsDV8 said:

THANK YOU everyone that has responded, I appreciate it very much as it’s super frustrating as a new reloader to experience so many failure to fire rounds, especially after a really good start.  So here’s a thought.  I had some problems with the primer feed system initially, there was a small seemingly inconsequential piece of plastic which stops the primers from all falling out at once when the handle is pushed up to seat the primer, it was missing when I first assembled the press.  I ended up dismantling the whole primer system trying to figure out what was going wrong when my primers were spewing out all over the table and the floor.  SInce I loosened that component and it’s directly tied to the prime seating, I’m assuming that depending on how tight that front face of the primer feed area is to the body of the machine makes a difference, as it limits the stroke depth of the handle which can affect the primer seating depth.  So I did tighten up the primer feed component and the primers appear to be coming out a bit higher on the die, but when I tested the bullet, the depth gauge is still reading 0 (flush with the case) or at best 0.005.  I am putting good effort into seating the primers and I can only push the handle up so far.  Is there any other way to adjust the seating depth on that press, if the seating depth is the issue?  I measured all my other non-VV340 powder loaded cases and they are all reading 0 and have been firing as they should.  I ordered a cheap Lee press today and a bullet puller die and am going to unload all the questionable ammo and see what’s what.  Thank again for the help and suggestions, super much appreciated.

 

Flush = high primer.

 

I load on a 650.  It's impossible to seat the primer too deep and you're not going to cause a primer to detonate,  The primer needs to be bottomed out against the primer pocket or the anvil has nothing to rest on.

[Steve RA]

To prove the point, get a hand priming device like a Lee and prime 50 cases and then load like normal (without the de-priming rod in the case sizer) and try them.  Think you will be pleasantly surprised.

[Postal Bob]

CCI primers, and certain brands of brass like S&B, and some older WCC, need an extra effort to seat the primers. You will feel the difference when you go to seat a primer in those cases. The primers may feel like they're seated, and even look like they are, but are not always. Like someone stated, if the primers are flush, they're not fully seated. The primer should be below the primer pocket edge. And a less than fully seated CCI primer, will not always go bang.

Change to Winchester primers, and be sure to give extra effort when seating a primer in those hard to prime cases.

 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Postal Bob

[jeeper90]

On 6/9/2018 at 9:07 AM, 72stick said:

Have you always been using the CCI primers? Here's a link on primer hardness.

 

http://www.fwtac.com/assets/small-pistol-primers---hardness-evaluation-report---rev-1.pdf

 

CCI ranks highest on the hardness test only giving 75% reliability and Winchester is rate 95%. Might consider changing to Winchester and loading up and shooting a couple dozen with WSP primers to see if the issue goes away. 

Very nice article, thanks for posting.

[MsDV8]

On 6/10/2018 at 8:13 AM, Steve RA said:

To prove the point, get a hand priming device like a Lee and prime 50 cases and then load like normal (without the de-priming rod in the case sizer) and try them.  Think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Have given thought to hand priming especially after the initial priming fiasco with the press.  I’ll probably end up decapping and priming with the new inexpensive Lee Precision press that’s coming in which I’m using for pulling the bullets on the cartridges that are misfiring.  

[MsDV8]

On 6/9/2018 at 9:07 AM, 72stick said:

Have you always been using the CCI primers? Here's a link on primer hardness.

 

http://www.fwtac.com/assets/small-pistol-primers---hardness-evaluation-report---rev-1.pdf

 

CCI ranks highest on the hardness test only giving 75% reliability and Winchester is rate 95%. Might consider changing to Winchester and loading up and shooting a couple dozen with WSP primers to see if the issue goes away. 

Thank you @72stickThat is a great article.  In looking at the indents on the primers of the misfired cases, (the three on the left) they don’t appear to have light strikes, in fact they possibly look deeper than the one that did fire (on the far right).  I’ve used the CCI primers exclusively since starting reloading and have never experienced a misfire with them, the occasional misfeed yes, those get reloaded into the magazine and fire as they’re supposed to on the second feed. Will have a lot around for other primers, CCI seems to predominate in Canada and locally for me.  Kind of like the limitations on powders as well, everything is more geared toward hunting around these parts so I need to buy powders and primers online through same the same supplier so that I don’t get killed on shipping.  A case of primers for $49 will carry a $45 Dangerous Goods shipping cost, so I buy Primers and Powders at the same time.  Otherwise reloading makes no financial sense at all.

[MsDV8]

21 hours ago, Postal Bob said:

CCI primers, and certain brands of brass like S&B, and some older WCC, need an extra effort to seat the primers. You will feel the difference when you go to seat a primer in those cases. The primers may feel like they're seated, and even look like they are, but are not always. Like someone stated, if the primers are flush, they're not fully seated. The primer should be below the primer pocket edge. And a less than fully seated CCI primer, will not always go bang.

Change to Winchester primers, and be sure to give extra effort when seating a primer in those hard to prime cases.

 

The effort and seating is limited to how far the upswing of the press’ lever will let me go.  When it hits the frame, that’s as far as it’s going, unless I start filing away at the frame or the lever or there is some way to adjust the machine internally?  The primers are flush with the casing,  0.0005 or at best 0.001, nothing compared to what factory loaded Blazer Brass are registering at 0.007.  So there is clearly a problem, but again, despite these higher than supposed to be seated primers, they have been firing for me, except recently.  I shot an IDPA match yesterday with a borrowed CZ 85 and had loads of trouble with the box of Blazer Brass factory ammo (feed failure), but my reloaded brass using Winchester 231 and CCI primers (and their flush seating) fed and fired flawlessly.  Part of that could have been that the gun hadn’t been shot in a couple years and needed a few stages to work out the hibernation bugs.  But I’m still not sure my primer seating depth is such an issue as whatever else might be going on.  The primer depth theory is not proving out, at least not in my experience with the exception of this one batch of reloads.  Going to disassemble all of the VV340 loaded cases and start over and hopefully it sorts itself out.  One thing I can say is that it’s been great for live fire problem solving.  No shortage of tap, rack, bang practice, lol!

[MsDV8]

On 6/10/2018 at 5:21 AM, Hi-Power Jack said:

Great idea to try adjusting the seating depth, but when I get 2-3% high primers,

I throw them into a "Practice Only" pile and use them at the range on my own.

 

Most of them fire, though.

 

I don't use a gauge to determine if the primer's too high, I look at them down

the edge and it's easy to see if the primer is "too high".     

That’s what I’ve found as well.  The ones that are actually proud of the casing anyways.  The flush ones have all fired.

[Postal Bob]

Looking at the pics, you have a fairly solid indentation from the firing pin. But, it's also clear they are still sitting high.

Could they be incorrectly labeled as pistol primers, but in fact are rifle primers? That would account for the extra hardness of the primers. 

There should also be a way of adjusting the primer punch to seat the primers deeper.

[4n2t0]

Flush if fine for most primers but some brands (especially S&B primers) need to be seated well. You can get Fiocchi primers locally from Western Metal. I'd suggest trying those primers, as they aren't as sensitive to depth but still cheap, and your "problem" should go away.

Edited June 12, 2018 by 4n2t0

[MsDV8]

On 6/12/2018 at 7:54 AM, 4n2t0 said:

Flush if fine for most primers but some brands (especially S&B primers) need to be seated well. You can get Fiocchi primers locally from Western Metal. I'd suggest trying those primers, as they aren't as sensitive to depth but still cheap, and your "problem" should go away.

Will try that once I’m through my 4000 CC!’s, lol.

 

On 6/12/2018 at 7:03 AM, Postal Bob said:

Looking at the pics, you have a fairly solid indentation from the firing pin. But, it's also clear they are still sitting high.

Could they be incorrectly labeled as pistol primers, but in fact are rifle primers? That would account for the extra hardness of the primers. 

There should also be a way of adjusting the primer punch to seat the primers deeper.

Small pistol primers in use only.  I’m only reloading 9mm.  I’ll check YouTube on adjusting primer seating depth on a Dillon Square Deal.  I get my Lee “C” type press coming next week, I’ve already received the carbide dies, with the factory crimp and an additional undersize sizing die as I’m having the odd case turn up that won’t fit flush in the case gauge. , I’ll be using that press for resizing, decapping and priming.  

[HesedTech]

On 6/11/2018 at 11:02 AM, MsDV8 said:

  I shot an IDPA match yesterday with a borrowed CZ 85 and had loads of trouble with the box of Blazer Brass factory ammo (feed failure), but my reloaded brass using Winchester 231 and CCI primers (and their flush seating) fed and fired flawlessly. 

 

Ok you just learned a major lesson in reloading, guns and ammo, each gun has a load that works best for it. CZ (yes I have two in our shooting family) are notorious for being picky on ammo, especially for OAL and bullet profiles. You have also learned the next rule, never go to a match with new and untested equipment and gear.  Save the testing for range day.

 

My my personal opinion is this, you have received a whole lot of advice, most good, so go out and experiment until you find the load data that works in your gun. Once you get it dialed in load, shoot and become a master of sending that bit of metal down range. 

 

I think some enjoy reloading and discussing it more than they do hearing the bangs, improving their splits and hit factors/scores. Of course that is what this sport is all about. 

 

Enjoy!

Edited June 14, 2018 by HesedTech

[MsDV8]

3 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

 

Ok you just learned a major lesson in reloading, guns and ammo, each gun has a load that works best for it. CZ (yes I have two in our shooting family) are notorious for being picky on ammo, especially for OAL and bullet profiles. You have also learned the next rule, never go to a match with new and untested equipment and gear.  Save the testing for range day.

 

My my personal opinion is this, you have received a whole lot of advice, most good, so go out and experiment until you find the load data that works in your gun. Once you get it dialed in load, shoot and become a master of sending that bit of metal down range. 

 

I think some enjoy reloading and discussing it more than they do hearing the bangs, improving their splits and hit factors/scores. Of course that is what this sport is all about. 

 

Enjoy!

I was merely making the contrast between the factory load Blazer Brass, which with the CZ 85, after a few mags finally settled down and fired like it was supposed to (I’ve shot over 2000 rounds of factory loaded Blazer Brass through my Shadow 2 without fail....ever), to my handloaded Win 231 which fired flawlessly through the borrowed CZ 85, once the hibernation bugs were worked out.  This post IS NOT about loads that work in my CZ’s this post is about some issues I have with close to a 10% failure rate (or a box full of ammo) that I reloaded and there was perhaps some failure in the component of the load, whether the primers are not seating down low enough in the case, the powder might have contacted moisture in the case, or the primer pocket might have tumbling debris in it.  Going to a club match with borrowed equipment is a non-issue in my mind.  The equipment was functioning safely, I checked with the owner what ammunition the gun preferred (round nose to my usual RNFP bullets I reload) and that’s all I was concerned about.  I’m not the only person that was having to tap-rack-bang their pistol that day and I actually do have load data that works for each of my hand guns and load accordingly to what I need it for (practice - competition/matches).  You know what they say about “opinions”.....

 

Thanks though

[HesedTech]

I respect those who love reloading, the experimenting with loads and all the gadgets that goes with that side of the hobby. I too find myself getting into these things, but my main purpose for reloading is making large amounts of ammo that work in my guns so I can shoot. Oh and it really doesn’t save me any money over buying factory ammo. 

 

Additionally I love the test of each match, local and greater, and how they reveal my preparedness and practice qualities. Yes I socialize, have fun running and gunning and, for me, it’s not about beating the local hot shot. 

 

My point was, except it or not, was I learn from every event something new about my self and my process. My comment was not meant to be a diss. I’m sorry if you took it that way. 

 

Enjoy the hobby and make it what you want it to be.

Edited June 14, 2018 by HesedTech

[4n2t0]

5 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Oh and it really doesn’t save me any money over buying factory ammo. 

 

Then you're not doing it right!

[Bkreutz]

My handloads cost me about half what store bought ammo would, plus the only failure to fires I've had was with factory ammo.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

Are you having light strikes in double action? Or are they also occuring frequently in single action?

 

If you arent aware, a DA/SA gun’s hammer doesnt cock back as far in double action. Your first hit with the hammer down at the buzzer is the weakest one.

 

CCI primers are hard. CCI primers are also physically taller than others: fill a dillon tube with 100 CCI and 100 Fiocchi or S&B or Winchester, and look at how tall they are in the tube. The CCI stack will be taller than the others...

 

So rock hard CCI primers won’t press as deeply as other brands with softer cups using the same leverage from your press, but a full seated CCI is also not buried as deeply as it’s shorter competitors. With CCI .002” is as deep as I can get them in some brands of brass. I can bury Wichesters at .005”-.008”.

 

I still always wanted them below flush with my hammer fired Tanfoglio. Now that I shoot a Walther Q5 with a stock striker spring, I get to go back to not caring too much: flush is now good again. This gun hits hard.

[HesedTech]

4 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

Then you're not doing it right!

I’m long past the simple single stage press days with somewhere near $4k + or - in just the reloading gear. Yes the raw cost of bullet, powder, primer and brass is around $.15 for 9mm. When do I break even on the reloading gear? 

 

If I save $.10 per cartridge over factory it will take somewhere near 40k rounds before I might break even. 

 

Yes one can do it for less, but at a bit slower rate. Basically I did not start reloading to save money, I do it to get the ammo I want for my guns.

 

As I wrote the hobby include gadgets and other cool stuff. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by HesedTech

[ddc]

20 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

I’m long past the simple single stage press days with somewhere near $4k + or - in just the reloading gear. Yes the raw cost of bullet, powder, primer and brass is around $.15 for 9mm. When do I break even on the reloading gear? 

 

If I save $.10 per cartridge over factory it will take somewhere near 40k rounds before I might break even. 

 

Yes one can do it for less, but at a bit slower rate. Basically I did not start reloading to save money, I do it to get the ammo I want for my guns.

 

As I wrote the hobby include gadgets and other cool stuff. 

Yep! The ammo I want to shoot plus some cool stuff to play with. 650 vs. 550... 650 vs. LNL... 650 vs. 1050... 1050 vs. Mark 7... I just wish I had more time.

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by ddc

[4n2t0]

10 hours ago, HesedTech said:

I’m long past the simple single stage press days with somewhere near $4k + or - in just the reloading gear. Yes the raw cost of bullet, powder, primer and brass is around $.15 for 9mm. When do I break even on the reloading gear? 

 

If I save $.10 per cartridge over factory it will take somewhere near 40k rounds before I might break even. 

 

Yes one can do it for less, but at a bit slower rate. Basically I did not start reloading to save money, I do it to get the ammo I want for my guns.

 

As I wrote the hobby include gadgets and other cool stuff. 

 

Most of us are long past the single stage stuff . You can reload for whatever reason you'd like but when you say it doesn't save you money that can only be because you're not doing it right. I have a lot of the cool toys too but I was able to recover my money within a year and a half and at the time I was only reloading 9mm. Everyone's situation is different.

 

Cheers.

Edited June 15, 2018 by 4n2t0

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, 4n2t0 said:

You can reload for whatever reason you'd like but when you say it doesn't save you money that can only be because you're not doing it right.

 

4n

 

That’s a bit of a diss, isn’t it. 

 

Since it it depends on what your criteria are for “doing it right” I guess we’ll have to differ here. 

I’ve seen all the sites and comments about how to amortize the costs, and without going into detail I can assure you my professional background includes extensive financial analysis experience. 

 

So let’s just politely leave this alone and help others make quality ammo that goes bang, is accurate and provides the appropriate PF when the trigger is pulled. 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by HesedTech