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MsDV8

High number of Failure to Fires with reloaded ammo using VVN340

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I just reloaded about 500 rounds of 9mm using Vihtavuori N340 (4.0gr) with 147gr Campro RNFP bullets and CCI Small Pistol Primers and once fired range brass (that had been fired through my CZ Shadow 2.  I hadn’t had a chance to fire any of the rounds apart from a few rounds for putting them through the chronograph.   Yesterday I was shooting my brand new CZ P-09 using those rounds and was getting a lot of double feeds (some of that is user error, I’m used to shooting a much heavier Shadow 2 and part of it could be breaking in the new gun), I experienced a few misfires at the same time, but was more focused on the double feeds.  Today, no issue with double feeds, but the misfires seemed to be continual.  At least 2 per mag (mag holds 10) and it was happening in both the Shadow 2 and the P-09.  I have not experienced any problems with VV N320 which I am loading for my competition ammo also using 147gr Campro Bullets.  I ran at least 50 rounds of Winchester 231 with 124gr Hornady bullets through the P-09 without any problems today as well.  I am absolutely certain that each of the cases were loaded with the right measured amount of ammo because my process for reloading is as follows:  brass is washed, dried, tumbled, deprimed, washed, dried and tumbled again.  Then it is primed and loaded with powder.  I keep a close eye on the amount going in and weigh every round before storage.  I have narrowed it down to either a bad batch of primers, or the powder, but if it was the powder, then every cartridge would be misfiring. Unfortunately because I was mass producing, all the ammo with primers from different boxes have been mixed together.  When I get a misfire I am racking the slide and ejecting it, but I wonder if I should be doing this in case it’s a “Hang Fire” situation?  I am going to be pulling the dud bullets and see what’s going on inside.    Any thoughts on this and is it unusual to get that many dud rounds or what might be the cause?  Thanks

Edited by MsDV8

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Primers may not be fully seated.

 

Or, perhaps the brass wasn't dry after the "wash" cycle, or after spraying lubricant

on the cases.

 

Are the primers lighting up and the powder not firing ?    Or, are the primers dented

but not fired ?

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31 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Primers may not be fully seated.

 

Or, perhaps the brass wasn't dry after the "wash" cycle, or after spraying lubricant

on the cases.

 

Are the primers lighting up and the powder not firing ?    Or, are the primers dented

but not fired ?

I agree with this post. Check to see if the powder is clumpy when you pull the rounds. 

Ive has failure to fire on a few cases due to the primer not being fully seated. When the firing pin contacted the primer it would fully seat the primer. Check to see if your primers are fully seated.

On the last tumble before you load is that wet tumbling or tumbling in dry media? Media may be clogging the flash hole of your cases as well 

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38 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Primers may not be fully seated.  

 

Or, perhaps the brass wasn't dry after the "wash" cycle, or after spraying lubricant

on the cases.

 

Are the primers lighting up and the powder not firing ?    Or, are the primers dented

but not fired ?

Primers are fully seated

Brass fully dry

I roll the cases onto a very lightly oiled case lube pad

Primers not lighting up, I don’t think anyways. 

Dry media for final tumbling before priming and I check each and every case to make sure it’s clean inside, those that aren’t get scrubbed with a brass brush and then blown out with compressed air..  The washed and tumbled cases usually sit for a few weeks before I get around to reloading them.  This is the first time in over 2000 reloads that I’ve experienced this problem.  Pretty puzzling.  Everything else has fired flawlessly to date.  I’ve basically only changed one thing in my routine and that’s the powder, but that doesn’t make sense.  Time to pull the bullets.

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How do you know the primers are fully seated? Did you re-strike any of the duds? If they go bang after a second strike then the primers aren't fully seated. What primer brand are you using?

Edited by 4n2t0

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If the primers were firing but the powder does not burn, the bullet is almost always pushed out of the case by the force from the primer and into the riflings. Upon extraction the bullet generally stays stuck in the barrel.

 

Are you getting light firing pin strikes?  Maybe a weak hammer spring, light firing pin, or dirty firing pin channel.

 

By the way, you should have zero dud rounds. 

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3 minutes ago, superdude said:

If the primers were firing but the powder does not burn, the bullet is almost always pushed out of the case by the force from the primer and into the riflings. Upon extraction the bullet generally stays stuck in the barrel.

 

Are you getting light firing pin strikes?  Maybe a weak hammer spring, light firing pin, or dirty firing pin channel.

 

By the way, you should have zero dud rounds. 

 

You haven't been reloading long enough if you've never had a dud round.

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27 minutes ago, superdude said:

If the primers were firing but the powder does not burn, the bullet is almost always pushed out of the case by the force from the primer and into the riflings. Upon extraction the bullet generally stays stuck in the barrel.

 

Are you getting light firing pin strikes?  Maybe a weak hammer spring, light firing pin, or dirty firing pin channel.

 

By the way, you should have zero dud rounds. 

 

The primers are not firing because the bullet is intact and still held within the brass, no change in the COL either.  This is happening with the new P-09 and the tried and true Shadow 2 and only with the loads using the VV N340, everything else is going through fine (VV N320 and Winchester 231).  I don’t think it’s either of the pistols.

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27 minutes ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

You haven't been reloading long enough if you've never had a dud round.

Hahah, I guess I made quota yesterday and today and up until yesterday and  today, I have never had a dud.

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44 minutes ago, 4n2t0 said:

How do you know the primers are fully seated? Did you re-strike any of the duds? If they go bang after a second strike then the primers aren't fully seated. What primer brand are you using?

I’ve had primers that have not fully seated.  I run my fingers over the primers when I’ve put them primer up in a case box and the box is full, easy enough to tell the difference and see the difference.  Those go through the primer seating cycle again (because I am only going to the point of pre-priming all of the cases before they all get loaded).  That re-seated primer ammo has all proven out, no problems.

 

Using CCI small pistol primers.  Again, no problem with over 2000 rounds of reloads.

 

Thanks for the suggestion on restriking the duds, I will give that a try, I’d be surprised if it’s the primer seating, I’m pretty OCD when it comes to loading, but there’s always an offhand chance, but not close to a whole box of ammunition so far.

Edited by MsDV8

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Not a fan of cci primers, try different ones if you have any available.. Process of elimination 

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Now you know where to focus your efforts. It's a primer problem. It's the primers or how hard they are being hit. It's probably the latter since there is nothing wrong with CCI primers unless you got a bad batch. You can do the pencil test on the guns to see if the firing pins have plenty of power.

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Isn't this more than likely a primer related problem? Probably a press related primer seating problem? The chance that it is powder related has to be way low.

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6 hours ago, superdude said:

It's a primer problem.

It's a primer related problem. Most common primer problem in my experience is a high primer. A few might have slipped past your inspection routine.  Look at the offending rounds very carefully. Then re-shoot them to see if it was at first high and then got fully seated on the first shot. Make sure your FP and spring are good to go. If that doesn't solve it, change primers.

 

One last thing ... I notice you de-prime and then tumble again. Did media get stuck in the flash hole? It happens and is easy to check.

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Questions:

 

  1. Do you try to fire the cartridges again instead of cycling and ejecting them?
  2. Do you have a gauge to actually measure the primer seating depth? Running finger over them is not sufficient, they must be lower than flush when seated for reliable ignition.
  3. Are your guns polished and have lighter hammer springs installed?
  4. What reloading press and primer seating process are you using?

 

CCI primers are known for light strike issues on light hammer springs. Use WSP or Federal primers. 

As it has been stated if the primer ignites, even with zero powder, the bullet will engage the rifling and get stuck in barrel.

Your double feed issues could be OAL, bullet profile or possibly magazine related. 

Too many unknown variables to properly answer your issues. 

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3 hours ago, lgh said:

It's a primer related problem. Most common primer problem in my experience is a high primer. A few might have slipped past your inspection routine.  Look at the offending rounds very carefully. Then re-shoot them to see if it was at first high and then got fully seated on the first shot. Make sure your FP and spring are good to go. If that doesn't solve it, change primers.

 

One last thing ... I notice you de-prime and then tumble again. Did media get stuck in the flash hole? It happens and is easy to check.

Those casings are CLEAN.  Like near factory clean.  Compressed air blows out any residual debris.

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I think the double feed sorted itself out.  The CZ P-09 is brand new and still being broken in, plus it’s Combat Tupperware and I’m used to shooting the much heavier Shadow 2.  Just an adjustment in my grip was needed to fix that.

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2 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Questions:

 

  1. Do you try to fire the cartridges again instead of cycling and ejecting them?
  2. Do you have a gauge to actually measure the primer seating depth? Running finger over them is not sufficient, they must be lower than flush when seated for reliable ignition.
  3. Are your guns polished and have lighter hammer springs installed?
  4. What reloading press and primer seating process are you using?

 

CCI primers are known for light strike issues on light hammer springs. Use WSP or Federal primers. 

As it has been stated if the primer ignites, even with zero powder, the bullet will engage the rifling and get stuck in barrel.

Your double feed issues could be OAL, bullet profile or possibly magazine related. 

Too many unknown variables to properly answer your issues. 

-Someone new to shooting pulled the trigger twice on the P-09 when the cartridge didn’t fire the first time and I told them to rack the slide to get rid of it.

-I have Vernier calipers with a depth gauge that I use on any primers I’m still suspicious of as far as their depth goes.

-Both guns are completely factory spec still

-Dillon Square Deal, I decap and prime separately (2 step process decap and prime, stockpile the primed cases, then load as I need them).

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Have you always been using the CCI primers? Here's a link on primer hardness.

 

http://www.fwtac.com/assets/small-pistol-primers---hardness-evaluation-report---rev-1.pdf

 

CCI ranks highest on the hardness test only giving 75% reliability and Winchester is rate 95%. Might consider changing to Winchester and loading up and shooting a couple dozen with WSP primers to see if the issue goes away. 

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"Stockpile primed cases"
If the primers have a decent dent in them only other thing it could be is they got contaminated.

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As already mentioned a bunch of times you definitely have a primer problem. It would be interesting to know if all/most of the dud rounds were loaded into the same brand of brass (e.g. S&B brass). I still think you have a high primer problem which is so slight that it may be difficult to see with the naked eye. After reloading set your completed rounds on a flat surface (right side up), rounds which wobble when placed on the flat surface have high(er) primers. 

Edited by 4n2t0

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4 hours ago, MsDV8 said:

-Someone new to shooting pulled the trigger twice on the P-09 when the cartridge didn’t fire the first time and I told them to rack the slide to get rid of it.

-I have Vernier calipers with a depth gauge that I use on any primers I’m still suspicious of as far as their depth goes.

-Both guns are completely factory spec still

-Dillon Square Deal, I decap and prime separately (2 step process decap and prime, stockpile the primed cases, then load as I need them).

 

Thanks for the answers.

 

Still not sure about the second trigger pull answer. If I have a no ignition I do another trigger pull to see if it  will light off (DA actions only), then rack the slide and see what's going on. If the bullet is still there I save the cartridge to see what's up. Now if the bullet is missing what we have in our hands is a "squib" fire and a plugged barrel, which could be a really big problem should we rack another round into the chamber and fire it.

 

  1. A stock CZ gun should shoot CCI primers, so the issue has to be somewhere else.
  2. There are multiple threads on this forum about primer depth and how to measure it. I would suggest you do a search of this forum and glean that information.
  3. The Square Deal should properly seat of the primers.

 

Basically you have to go and eliminate all the variables to find the problem.

 

Do you "plunk" plunk and "spin" test ALL of your reloaded ammo? This is essential for reliability! Again, do a search of this forum and there's some great info on how to do that. 

 

Based on your other info I would load some brass that has not been cleaned or lubed except with a very light exterior lubing for the press. Personally I found "One Shot" was the best for pistol loading and requires zero cleaning afterwards. The reason I would neither wash or tumble the brass is to find out if your "washing" processes are leaving residue in the brass and contaminating your primers.

 

I might also recommend trying not priming the cases until ready to load. Yes, it should not be a problem, but the risk of some sort of primer contamination increases.

 

Just so you know uncleaned brass still performs just fine; its just a bit dirty and messy to handle and will not hurt you gun.

 

Just some ideas that might help, use what works or try something else.

Edited by HesedTech

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You are totally over thinking reloading!  Way to many steps. you do not have to clean your brass so much , All you need to do is tumble the cases and reload.  When you prime a case you should load that case!  Reloading good ammo has lot to do with consistency.  you start and stop the process to much.   My range pickup brass I tumble for 45 minutes that's as clean as it gets. It is no where near factor.  You have had more problems in you 500 rounds then I have had In my 185,000 reloads.

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7 hours ago, Joe4d said:

"Stockpile primed cases"
If the primers have a decent dent in them only other thing it could be is they got contaminated.

They are stored upside down in a sealed ammunition case.  Impossible.  Too OCD for something simple like contamination, lol.

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I had this problem with Russian primers with my BHP - my STI TruBor lit them

up just fine - 100%.   The BHP was closer to 50%  

 

I certainly cannot be the powder -  

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