What is Unsafe Gun Handling for a PCC before Make Ready is issued?

[Gary Stevens]

7 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Shot a match last Fall and that's how I did it.  I was the only PCC shooter in the squad so got it approved right after the reading of the WSB.  Checked with the RO on each stage.   No problems, right?

 

On the third stage I finished a mediocre run and was carrying my gun (vertical with muzzle up) to my cart.  I would then take both to the berm and return the gun to the cart.  From 50 yards away I hear the RM yelling at me.  Spent the next 20 minutes reviewing the rule book with the RM to keep from being DQ'd.

 

Resolved that I was not DQ'd but on the remaining stages I must take the cart to the start position and remove it from the cart and return it to the cart only under the RO's supervision.

 

 

 

Did your RM show you in the rules where he was right? One can guess that because you were not DQ'd he was wrong.

[Flatland Shooter]

1 minute ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Did your RM show you in the rules where he was right? One can guess that because you were not DQ'd he was wrong.

 

No rule was found but left with the impression that there was no DQ issued since the stage RO approved my actions in advance.

 

 

[Patrick Scott]

Since following this thread I have looked at some other long gun rule sets just to confirm we are not doing anything out of the ordinary. While browsing those rule sets I came across some interesting tid bits in our(USPSA) mult-gun rule set. Now I am kind of wondering why the PCC rules are different than the MG rules. I kind of like a few of the differences. Thoughts(copy and paste bits from the MG rules)?

 

5.2.Carry and Storage of Competitor Equipment

5.2.4.

Firearms that are being transported on a cart, vehicle, or other such conveyance must be situated on the conveyance in either a muzzle up or muzzle down orientation if not bagged. Under such conditions long guns must have a chamber safety flag inserted. The muzzle of any such firearm, if oriented down, must point to a spot within 3 feet of the conveyance. If pointed up, it must be oriented such that a person walking around the conveyance will not be covered by the muzzle if they are more than 3 feet away from the conveyance. All such measurements shall be taken while the conveyance is situated on flat, level ground. In the event of disagreement on how the firearm is being transported, the RM shall be the final authority as to the acceptability of such orientation.

 

10.5.

Match Disqualification

–Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1.

Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area (or in the case of rifles, elsewhere deemed safe by a Range Officer), or when under the supervision of and in response to a direct command issued by a Range Officer. This does not apply to the carrying ofrifles or shotguns where Rule5.2.2 will apply. 

(Notice the " in response to a direct command part")

 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Patrick Scott

[JAFO]

I think the intent of this rule was to allow for an area (other than a safety table) to be designated where PCCs could be cased and uncased, rather than allowing it to happen anywhere along a side berm.  But I'm wondering if people are reading too much into this, and assuming it means match organizers can stipulate when, where, and how PCCs are cased/uncased.

 

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a "staging area" for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

 

I mean, I suppose they could use this rule to specify that all PCCs must be cased/uncased into the backstop instead of a side berm.  That would essentially preclude handling one until everyone was uprange of the start position.  But this rule still doesn't allow handling, manipulating sights, maintenance, etc.  All that still has to be done under the RO's supervision or at a safety table.

 

I handle mine the same as Gary and others have stated.  I retrieve it from my bag at a side berm or safe table (depending on which range it is), and carry it muzzle down by the buffer tube to the start position.  Once the RO gives me MR, I remove the flag, turn on the dot, load, etc.  At ICHMF, I flag it and either carry it muzzle down to inspect scoring or I go back to my bag.  Seems to be the way every PCC shooter I have shot with does it, and everyone is happy.

[L3324temp]

 
You have to be careful about being to hard on MD who have to cater to USPSA while also answering to their local BOD and shooters. Especially when it comes to safety rules. Piss off the BOD and USPSA wont be at that club anymore.
 

The club I shoot at most often is not an official match just for this reason.


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[Hammer002]

13 hours ago, Patrick Scott said:

Since following this thread I have looked at some other long gun rule sets just to confirm we are not doing anything out of the ordinary. While browsing those rule sets I came across some interesting tid bits in our(USPSA) mult-gun rule set. Now I am kind of wondering why the PCC rules are different than the MG rules. I kind of like a few of the differences. Thoughts(copy and paste bits from the MG rules)?

 

5.2.Carry and Storage of Competitor Equipment

5.2.4.

Firearms that are being transported on a cart, vehicle, or other such conveyance must be situated on the conveyance in either a muzzle up or muzzle down orientation if not bagged. Under such conditions long guns must have a chamber safety flag inserted. The muzzle of any such firearm, if oriented down, must point to a spot within 3 feet of the conveyance. If pointed up, it must be oriented such that a person walking around the conveyance will not be covered by the muzzle if they are more than 3 feet away from the conveyance. All such measurements shall be taken while the conveyance is situated on flat, level ground. In the event of disagreement on how the firearm is being transported, the RM shall be the final authority as to the acceptability of such orientation.

 

10.5.

Match Disqualification

–Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1.

Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area (or in the case of rifles, elsewhere deemed safe by a Range Officer), or when under the supervision of and in response to a direct command issued by a Range Officer. This does not apply to the carrying ofrifles or shotguns where Rule5.2.2 will apply. 

(Notice the " in response to a direct command part")

 

 

 

 

I think you are aware, but if not, or for those who may not be, the USPSA multigun rules and USPSA pistol match rules are two completely separate animals and in no way effect, govern, or translate between the two.  At all.  The USPSA has been very clear on this.  I think that’s the point you were making, but just clarifying before conversation took off in a odd direction.  Multigun is far more loose in what most would call safety rules.  Not because they are unsafe, but there is a different kind of environment there.  I can’t afford to keep several pistol match and steel challenge guns going if I added 3 gun personally, but I kinda refer to 3 gun as the adult league.  Whatever ones opinion, just recognize the two sets of rules are completely separate and have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  With that said, when changes came to multigun this year, it was rumored, and even unofficially stated, some of the rules to come to pistol matches were going to be implemented in multigun first.  One of which was the rules involving sweeping.  Others to do with rifle handling.  I’m not as fluent in the multigun rules, but when I read the changes, I seem to remember really liking some of them, especially the simplified, yet more complete sweeping rule.  I would have to hunt it down for reference, just going from memory at the present, but I believe it was a direct pull from IPSC.  Anyone feel free to correct me, again, going from memory with the point being the USPSA stated they were focusing on multigun rule changes first, this year, then supposedly pistol next year.

 

 

9 hours ago, JAFO said:

I think the intent of this rule was to allow for an area (other than a safety table) to be designated where PCCs could be cased and uncased, rather than allowing it to happen anywhere along a side berm.  But I'm wondering if people are reading too much into this, and assuming it means match organizers can stipulate when, where, and how PCCs are cased/uncased.

 

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a "staging area" for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

 

I mean, I suppose they could use this rule to specify that all PCCs must be cased/uncased into the backstop instead of a side berm.  That would essentially preclude handling one until everyone was uprange of the start position.  But this rule still doesn't allow handling, manipulating sights, maintenance, etc.  All that still has to be done under the RO's supervision or at a safety table.

 

I handle mine the same as Gary and others have stated.  I retrieve it from my bag at a side berm or safe table (depending on which range it is), and carry it muzzle down by the buffer tube to the start position.  Once the RO gives me MR, I remove the flag, turn on the dot, load, etc.  At ICHMF, I flag it and either carry it muzzle down to inspect scoring or I go back to my bag.  Seems to be the way every PCC shooter I have shot with does it, and everyone is happy.

 

This rule was to allow variances in range design.  One of the matches I go to notify in the matchbook their range, due to berm designs, cannot accommodate PCC shooters uncarting at the berms.  And by the way their really nice range is laid out, it’s a good call.  It also allows for some preference by the range management and match directors.  On occasion, due to range design, my local range will have 2 stages in one of its very large U shape berms.  When this occurs they state upfront PCC uncarting cannot safely be done in that bay and to bring the cart to the line for the 2 stages there, while uncarting at the berm is ok for the rest of the match.  Many of the large matches are saying PCC must be bagged when moving from stage to stage.  Probably another really good practice.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Hammer002

[Sarge]

I think the multigun reference was added simply because it is under the USPSA umbrella just like steel challenge. Seems it would be a simple procedure to bring the rules more inline for all.

[Patrick Scott]

15 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I think the multigun reference was added simply because it is under the USPSA umbrella just like steel challenge. Seems it would be a simple procedure to bring the rules more inline for all.

Exactly my point 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I think the multigun reference was added simply because it is under the USPSA umbrella just like steel challenge. Seems it would be a simple procedure to bring the rules more inline for all.

 

USPSA & IDPA people (me) have a difficult time enjoying a match with rifle & shotgun barrels pointed at us.

 

Multigun people see muzzling as a practical necessity, & would balk at the landslide of dq's necessary to correct habits and the extra long gun safe storage means that should be added at many range bays and the need to replace some carts and etc that are not muzzle safe from a USPSA perspective.

 

Never the twain shall meet, in my opinion. 

[Patrick Scott]

The MG rules I quoted would actually reduce muzzling...

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

but I kinda refer to 3 gun as the adult league

 

13 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

The MG rules I quoted would actually reduce muzzling...

 

I don't think you end up with happy campers from the pistol only sports when you reduce muzzling from long guns, or at least I have never heard anyone say "that match was delightful I only saw 2 shotguns and one ar15 pointed at my body parts" . 

[Patrick Scott]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

I don't think you end up with happy campers from the pistol only sports when you reduce muzzling from long guns, or at least I have never heard anyone say "that match was delightful I only saw 2 shotguns and one ar15 pointed at my body parts" . 

I say reduce because you can never eliminate it no matter if it's a handgun or long gun. 

[IHAVEGAS]

7 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

I say reduce because you can never eliminate it no matter if it's a handgun or long gun. 

 

If you can get the three gun guys to go for zero tolerance for muzzling when any long gun is uncased or any pistol is out of the holster then I think you could establish equivalence in philosophy & a coherent set of rules. 

 

[Patrick Scott]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you can get the three gun guys to go for zero tolerance for muzzling when any long gun is uncased or any pistol is out of the holster then I think you could establish equivalence in philosophy & a coherent set of rules. 

 

I don't care what  three gun folks do at their matches,  and that is not my point. I simply gave examples of rules from USPSA multi-gun that I feel could benefit USPSA handgun/PCC matches in terms of safety. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I think the multigun reference was added simply because it is under the USPSA umbrella just like steel challenge. Seems it would be a simple procedure to bring the rules more inline for all.

 

51 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

Exactly my point 

 

3 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

I don't care what  three gun folks do at their matches,  and that is not my point.

 

Ok. Apparently I did not correctly interpret your point initially. No worries. 

[Hammer002]

12 hours ago, Sarge said:

I think the multigun reference was added simply because it is under the USPSA umbrella just like steel challenge. Seems it would be a simple procedure to bring the rules more inline for all.

 

11 hours ago, Patrick Scott said:

Exactly my point 

 

I think it’s coming next year.  Seems I read the new rules were being written into multigun for this year, and the same would be written into pistol next year.  Likely with any needed additions/revisions.  I’m hoping they get it worked out for next year.  I think the rules are ok if correctly understood and followed now, but maybe a bit of clean up for easier understanding and less interpreted contradictions.  Of course, I keep hoping PCC takes off on its own.  Or two gun grows.  But I don’t think it’s likely in near future.  Do think there will be a measurable update to the pistol rules this coming year.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Hammer002