What is Unsafe Gun Handling for a PCC before Make Ready is issued?

[Patrick Scott]

On 6/24/2018 at 7:26 PM, Jollymon32 said:

What I would like to see from NROI is that the rules of handling FIREARMS are consistently applied to all FIREARMS.  Absolutely no handling of any firearms until the RO issues the make ready command.  For PCC, rifle must remain in the cart or bagged until the MR command is issued.  The RANGE IS SAFE command is not issued until the PCC is once again bagged or carted.

 

While that would be nice for consistency in our rule books, but messing around with bag/cart at the line and before RIC is a mess, a waste of time and I don't think any other rifle action sport requires it(probably because of the reasons I just stated).  We are not the only sport running rifles and I'd say they other sports that handle what to do with these guns have a pretty good safety record. Just because the way we are doing it now is foreign to some, it doesn't mean its dangerous, too hard, or otherwise wrong.

[Hammer002]

On 6/24/2018 at 6:26 PM, Jollymon32 said:

What I would like to see from NROI is that the rules of handling FIREARMS are consistently applied to all FIREARMS.  Absolutely no handling of any firearms until the RO issues the make ready command.  For PCC, rifle must remain in the cart or bagged until the MR command is issued.  The RANGE IS SAFE command is not issued until the PCC is once again bagged or carted.

 

 

Having your own perspectives is nice.  Although, I would much rather everyone actually understand the real rules rather than their "perspectives," "opinions," "interpretations," how they "feel" about whatever.

 

As far as I know the USPSA early on declared the reason for the being able to unbag at the berm is not to lengthen the day waiting on PCC shooters to wait for RO commands to do so.  Equally so, the shooter is entitled to walk with the RO for scoring, so again, waiting for the bagging, etc would suck.  The rules pertaining to this are actually sufficient.  Now if people would just learn them.  Yes, some wording semantics could use some work, but all of your mentioned "perspectives" are specifically handled in the rules and should be controlled by the RO.  Of course the RO has to be knowledgeable.  Which seems to be a growing problem.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Hammer002

[Jollymon32]

Yes, it is a perspective, a perspective based solely on safety.  In a sport where the rules are geared towards minimizing an accident from occurring, handling a firearm when there are people downrange seems folly.  Regardless of what other sports do, or how much longer time it adds to the stage reset.  Personally, I do not go down range if there is anyone handling a firearm uprange - it is contrary to all I have ever been taught and observed.

 

As an RO, I do not allow any firearm handling while there are people downrange.  It is something that I mention in the briefing, “As a courtesy to your squad mates as well as the RO’s please refrain from handling any firearms until the RO running the stage ensures the range is clear and issues the Make Ready command.”  I have never had anyone complain to the RM over this, on the other hand, I have had shooters thank me for doing so.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Jollymon32

[OPENB]

42 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

Yes, it is a perspective, a perspective based solely on safety.  In a sport where the rules are geared towards minimizing an accident from occurring, handling a firearm when there are people downrange seems folly.  Regardless of what other sports do, or how much longer time it adds to the stage reset.  Personally, I do not go down range if there is anyone handling a firearm uprange - it is contrary to all I have ever been taught and observed.

 

As an RO, I do not allow any firearm handling while there are people downrange.  It is something that I mention in the briefing, “As a courtesy to your squad mates as well as the RO’s please refrain from handling any firearms until the RO running the stage ensures the range is clear and issues the Make Ready command.”  I have never had anyone complain to the RM over this, on the other hand, I have had shooters thank me for doing so.

As long as your kind requests jibe with the current rules, that's great. But don't make up your own rules to satisfy a private definition of what's safe. It's not fair to shooters that are new to the club to have to deal with local rules that are not published. And if I were visiting your club, I would complain. Because it's not supported by the rules. 

[OPENB]

This whole thread is why I've backed off PCC this year. Because I shoot to have fun, not to deal with the hate, disrespect, rudeness, local rules. Area 5 won't even offer PCC this year cause he hates PCC. An area match! How about we observe an obey the written rules. They're fine. 

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, OPENB said:

As long as your kind requests jibe with the current rules, that's great. But don't make up your own rules to satisfy a private definition of what's safe. It's not fair to shooters that are new to the club to have to deal with local rules that are not published. And if I were visiting your club, I would complain. Because it's not supported by the rules. 

 

You would seriously complain because a RO doesn't want you to handle your firearm while he is down range and/or before the make ready command? I wonder how that would go.

[Sarge]

27 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You would seriously complain because a RO doesn't want you to handle your firearm while he is down range and/or before the make ready command? I wonder how that would go.

I would complain because the current rules don’t support it. If it’s a local match the MD should make it known ahead of time that he has an exemption from USPSA HQ to make up his own rules regarding PCC handling. If it’s a major match the RM SHOULD allow PCC handling per the current rules.

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I would complain because the current rules don’t support it. If it’s a local match the MD should make it known ahead of time that he has an exemption from USPSA HQ to make up his own rules regarding PCC handling. If it’s a major match the RM SHOULD allow PCC handling per the current rules.

 

You have to be careful about being to hard on MD who have to cater to USPSA while also answering to their local BOD and shooters. Especially when it comes to safety rules. Piss off the BOD and USPSA wont be at that club anymore.

 

I haven't read all 5 pages of this thread I assume there must be a rule that says rifles shooters must be allowed to handle their firearms before make ready? I like how at some clubs they even get a special table where they can handle their rifle but if I want to handle my pistol I have to walk 100 yards to the pistol safe table. Rifles certainly need a lot of special allowances to compete in USPSA. Seems the opposite of what was said about the division before it started.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You have to be careful about being to hard on MD who have to cater to USPSA while also answering to their local BOD and shooters. Especially when it comes to safety rules. Piss off the BOD and USPSA wont be at that club anymore.

 

I haven't read all 5 pages of this thread I assume there must be a rule that says rifles shooters must be allowed to handle their firearms before make ready? I like how at some clubs they even get a special table where they can handle their rifle but if I want to handle my pistol I have to walk 100 yards to the pistol safe table. Rifles certainly need a lot of special allowances to compete in USPSA. Seems the opposite of what was said about the division before it started.

BOD or not a club still has to get permission from HQ to implement local rules if they want to affiliate with USPSA. I went through that with my BOD at my club back when I was MD. They wanted some local rules snuck in and I told them it won’t happen. The fact USPSA brings in 10 times the money of any other activity carries a lot of weight with a BOD unless they are true haters.

  As for USPSA PCC rules I strongly suggest you read them. There are only a few pages. Just your comment about special tables for PCC handling shows your lack of knowledge of those rules. Not being an ass at all by the way. Nobody has the same understanding of those rules

[Jollymon32]

5 hours ago, OPENB said:

As long as your kind requests jibe with the current rules, that's great. But don't make up your own rules to satisfy a private definition of what's safe. It's not fair to shooters that are new to the club to have to deal with local rules that are not published. And if I were visiting your club, I would complain. Because it's not supported by the rules. 

 

By no stretch of the imagination is the concept that "no FIREARMS should be handled when there are people downrange" a private definition of what is safe.  It is a fundamental guideline of range safety.

 

I have not made up any rules.  It is an ask.  You most definitely can ignore the request, you will not be DQ'ed, but yet no one has ignored or complained.  It is a mere courtesy that you are exhibiting for your squad mates and the RO's that are working a stage.  Personally, I will not be down range when there is someone up-range handling a firearm.  Maybe one of the other RO's can score and check to ensure the stage has been reset.  I would also notify the rest of the squad that if they feel uncomfortable with the situation, that they can remain up range behind the person handling the firearm.  

 

If this common sense perspective invalidates my RO and CRO credentials, then I will gladly give them up.  But, like I have already mentioned, NO ONE has complained, everyone has shown the courtesy to the others on the stage, and I have even been thanked for this position.

 

[Racinready300ex]

35 minutes ago, Sarge said:

BOD or not a club still has to get permission from HQ to implement local rules if they want to affiliate with USPSA. I went through that with my BOD at my club back when I was MD. They wanted some local rules snuck in and I told them it won’t happen. The fact USPSA brings in 10 times the money of any other activity carries a lot of weight with a BOD unless they are true haters.

  As for USPSA PCC rules I strongly suggest you read them. There are only a few pages. Just your comment about special tables for PCC handling shows your lack of knowledge of those rules. Not being an ass at all by the way. Nobody has the same understanding of those rules

 

This seems like it would be a relatively easy thing to get approval on..

 

I don't know that I see anything that says you can't ask the shooter to wait for the your to give the MR command. In fact if 5.2.1.5 says they may specify a "staging area"  I don't see why waiting for the RO before you can "stage" would be such a big deal. Especially if you don't have a "staging area". Certainly the shooters should be made aware, but dude said that's what he does. Just doesn't seem like such a big deal to me I guess.

 

Do PCC shooters really need to be standing there holding their gun that badly? To the point you need to run to the MD, then what the AD just because some RO asked you to wait for for MR to take your gun out? Choose your battles.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This seems like it would be a relatively easy thing to get approval on..

 

I don't know that I see anything that says you can't ask the shooter to wait for the your to give the MR command. In fact if 5.2.1.5 says they may specify a "staging area"  I don't see why waiting for the RO before you can "stage" would be such a big deal. Especially if you don't have a "staging area". Certainly the shooters should be made aware, but dude said that's what he does. Just doesn't seem like such a big deal to me I guess.

 

Do PCC shooters really need to be standing there holding their gun that badly? To the point you need to run to the MD, then what the AD just because some RO asked you to wait for for MR to take your gun out? Choose your battles.

I don’t think they need to be standing there holding their gun that badly. But I do think they should NOT be penalized (DQ) for doing so if the rules allow.

  And let’s not forget, a shooter doesn’t even have to bag a PCC at all. He is well within the rules to just carry it or sling it all day. How does that RO handle that? What if you drove 2 hours to shoot the match and you don’t have a bag or cart because you like to carry it from  stage to stage and put it in the racks if provided and that RO says you can’t shoot? THAT’S why we don’t allow local rules unless published and known by any potential shooter

Edited June 27, 2018 by Sarge

[Racinready300ex]

34 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I don’t think they need to be standing there holding their gun that badly. But I do think they should NOT be penalized (DQ) for doing so if the rules allow.

  And let’s not forget, a shooter doesn’t even have to bag a PCC at all. He is well within the rules to just carry it or sling it all day. How does that RO handle that? What if you drove 2 hours to shoot the match and you don’t have a bag or cart because you like to carry it from  stage to stage and put it in the racks if provided and that RO says you can’t shoot? THAT’S why we don’t allow local rules unless published and known by any potential shooter

 

I'm pretty sure in this state it is frowned upon to travel without your gun in a case so I don't really see that being a issue here. But, travel at your own risk. You'd probably have to ask Jollymon how he'd handle your hypothetical situation, my guess would be ask him to leave it on the rack until MR or if they don't have racks leave it slung until MR. That seems pretty easy. I think he's saying he doesn't want it in your hands (handling) while people are down range. Seems like the kind of thing that if you tell someone politely how what you would like them to do, there will be no issues at all.

 

And I don't think he said he's DQ'd anyone, just that he asks them not to handle the firearm until MR. And OPENB pointed out he would report him to the MD just for telling him that.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Racinready300ex

[DKorn]

It’s totally reasonable for you to politely ask that shooters not unbag / uncart their PCC until the RO says it is okay to do so. However, you may not, under USPSA rules, require that they do so, nor should you penalize them for failure to comply. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm pretty sure in this state it is frowned upon to travel without your gun in a case so I don't really see that being a issue here. But, travel at your own risk. You'd probably have to ask Jollymon how he'd handle your hypothetical situation, my guess would be ask him to leave it on the rack until MR or if they don't have racks leave it slung until MR. That seems pretty easy. I think he's saying he doesn't want it in your hands (handling) while people are down range. Seems like the kind of thing that if you tell someone politely how what you would like them to do, there will be no issues at all.

 

And I don't think he said he's DQ'd anyone, just that he asks them not to handle the firearm until MR. And OPENB pointed out he would report him to the MD just for telling him that.

I don’t know anything about your state but if it’s that restrictive I wouldn’t be there anyway most likely.

  And I’m sorry but it is unreasonable for an RO to interject his own rules into a sanctioned match.

[davsco]

i get at an actual shooting range, with rifles pointed downrange, you don't want folks messing with those guns while the line is cold and folks are downrange setting targets.  but bringing a flagged pcc to the line reasonably vertical and keeping it that way until the ro says to make ready seems pretty innocuous to me.  same way i don't freak out if a pistol shooter bends over to tie his shoe after making ready and muzzles me while holstered.  without deliberate, malevolent actions by the shooter, nothing is going to happen.

[OPENB]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm pretty sure in this state it is frowned upon to travel without your gun in a case so I don't really see that being a issue here. But, travel at your own risk. You'd probably have to ask Jollymon how he'd handle your hypothetical situation, my guess would be ask him to leave it on the rack until MR or if they don't have racks leave it slung until MR. That seems pretty easy. I think he's saying he doesn't want it in your hands (handling) while people are down range. Seems like the kind of thing that if you tell someone politely how what you would like them to do, there will be no issues at all.

 

And I don't think he said he's DQ'd anyone, just that he asks them not to handle the firearm until MR. And OPENB pointed out he would report him to the MD just for telling him that.

No, I said I would complain, meaning I'd say to his face, in a polite as possible fashion, that I'd like to follow the USPSA rule book, and only those rules, for the duration of the match. I guess if he WERE the MD, I'd technically be complaining to the MD. 

But, there was clarification made that he was making a request, not a rule, so I would live with that. Attitude that "requests" are made with can't be interpreted through a keyboard, and I'll assume that the request was made genuinely and not while wearing an Asshat. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by OPENB

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, OPENB said:

No, I said I would complain, meaning I'd say to his face, in a polite as possible fashion, that I'd like to follow the USPSA rule book, and only those rules, for the duration of the match. I guess if he WERE the MD, I'd technically be complaining to the MD. 

But, there was clarification made that he was making a request, not a rule, so I would live with that. Attitude that "requests" are made with can't be interpreted through a keyboard, and I'll assume that the request was made genuinely and not while wearing an Asshat. 

 

Sorry I read a little to much into your statement. He said "he never had anyone complain to the RM" and you said "I'd complain" I took that to mean you would be complain to the RM. It's easy to miss little things when reading something on the internet.

 

I was assuming he was making a polite request, and not wearing a Asshat as you put it lol.

 

I can see a area of concern here, mainly with new shooters. I've had new shooters draw there gun and making ready before the MR command. Once with guys still down range. That's with a gun in the holster not in their hands. Put the gun in their hands who knows what they will do. More experienced shooters not really a problem. So far I've yet to see any real issues with PCC, other than the occasional complaint about how they would shoot some stage with a awkward prop.

 

 

[Jollymon32]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Sorry I read a little to much into your statement. He said "he never had anyone complain to the RM" and you said "I'd complain" I took that to mean you would be complain to the RM. It's easy to miss little things when reading something on the internet.

 

I was assuming he was making a polite request, and not wearing a Asshat as you put it lol.

 

I can see a area of concern here, mainly with new shooters. I've had new shooters draw there gun and making ready before the MR command. Once with guys still down range. That's with a gun in the holster not in their hands. Put the gun in their hands who knows what they will do. More experienced shooters not really a problem. So far I've yet to see any real issues with PCC, other than the occasional complaint about how they would shoot some stage with a awkward prop.

 

 

I have been swept, from head to toe, by a PCC shooter bagging a carbine.

 

I was sitting on my stool, waiting with my squad, for the on deck squad to finish shooting the stage.  The shooter who swept me belonged to the squad who was currently shooting the stage.  He and his buddy were pointing the Carbine upward looking through the sight.  Once done looking, he proceeded to lower it (sweeping me) and bag it.

 

Their RO, was busy running a shooter.  And when I spoke to their RO (a very experienced CRO on his way to RM certification), he frustratedly mentioned that he could not possibly be in two places at once - running the shooter AND looking back to see what the rest of the squad was doing.  

 

I have ran this incident up the USPSA chain.  The response was that I should of DQ'ed the shooter for sweeping - regardless of whether I was the 'active' RO for that stage.

 

The thought that any Tom Dick or Harry can DQ anyone on any stage is, at a certain level disturbing (think "asshat" RO's).  But indeed, by allowing competitors to handle firearms while not under the direct supervision of an RO, this is what will happen - you are having competitors behind the firing line police themselves.

 

So much simpler if the rules are simply changed to "No handling of firearms until the MR command is given."

 

I have NEVER in the 7 years I have been playing this sport, seen anyone handle a handgun outside of the shooting area or safe area.  That concept is ingrained into all of us.  

 

 

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Jollymon32 said:

by allowing competitors to handle firearms while not under the direct supervision of an RO, this is what will happen - you are having competitors behind the firing line police themselves.

 

 

 

Of all you have posted, this is the sole valid point, and worthy of attention.  Personally, I think the rule could be more specific about how close to a berm, but even that could have its issues depending on range layout.

 

The rest of your points are hogwash.  If you represent yourself as an RO, you are subject to the rules at the time, not what you think they should be and even as you later then backed off to say the demands were mere requests is still out of line and introduces inconsistency in a match among ROs and even your interaction with competitors.  You have no business imposing yourself upon other competitors based on personal beliefs and if have done so, as described here, have no business being an RO.  If you don’t like the rules, take positive measures to influence change, but until that change occurs, you have an obligation to follow the rules as listed.  If you don’t like it, stay home.

 

You have gone on and on to paint other competitors than yourself as unworthy imbeciles you are forced to interact with because your ideas and morals are so elevated.  Are there mistakes made on the ranges?  Of course.  We all know under the pressure of a match, competition, and after the beep strange things can happen.  The current rules are very safety first oriented, even in light of your contradictory personal perspective comments.  No one is trying to be unsafe.  No ROs are trying to allow unsafe actions.  And the rules, even in their current state, when followed, create a more than a safe environment.  A person with a flagged PCC standing on the line with it upright next to an RO is hardly evidence of an unsafe environment.  And your holier than thou comments regarding its unsafe because YOU don’t know it’s unloaded or flagged are out of line especially when you also take into consideration you stand at the back of the line waiting or as an RO in close proximity to actual known loaded firearms, known to have the safety off, known to be in someone’s hands, and known to be actually being fired, and known that when the magazine is empty another will be reloaded and it will all continue with the possibility of that gun accidentally being turned the wrong way either by direct action or physical mishap, of which to be of far more potential danger than someone standing in one spot with a rifle held muzzle up.  Now Troy did mention he was ok with the muzzle being lowered at the line prior to make ready, but I’m sure he assumes of average intelligence to not assume this is while people are downrange.

 

Going to the point of ridiculousness to impose your will and ego upon others is far more a problem in this sport than the needing of some rule changes.  Mix that with ignorance of the rules themselves, and you get what you have been posting.  Maybe you don’t actually act the way you describe and it’s all internet banter, but if you do, you are not what this sport needs.  You don’t get to make it up as you go because you feel you have a better way or because your perspective of a rule or opinion of a competitor is that of being beneath you.  Get over yourself, learn the rules, work as a team, or stay home.

 

You posted a personal story, and here is mine.  When I first started shooting steel challenge, I was the next shooter and stepped into the box ( with holstered pistol ) to get my first view of the stage.  The RO came unglued.  Yelling at me I may not enter the box until he says so.  Though I hadn’t shot much steel challenge, I had thoroughly read the rules, and knew this wasn’t one of them.  After our squad finished, I politely asked him about stepping in the box before told to and where I could find the rule so I would make sure to be in compliance in the future.  He scoffed, and told me it was HIS RULE because he didn’t think it was safe to have someone standing in the box while people are down range because they don’t know what the person in the box is doing.  Sound familiar?  Equally ridiculous.  If you feel that much distrust and anxiety toward the other competitors we shoot with and the supervision of the ROs, though some deserve some evaluation, this sport may not be a good fit for you.  It involves guns, live ammo, and lots of different people, all of which in close proximity with some strict rules about safety to keep everyone safe.  No one can run around doing whatever they want because they think they can or should on either side of the rule debate.  Just as you think you want to be more strict by your perspective, that means someone else can think they can be more lenient.  Both of which confuse the competitors who aren’t savvy with the rules yet, and BOTH of which are in violation of the rules. What did I do to make a positive influence?  I learned the rules in and out and became GM in multiple divisions, allowing me to be taken a little more seriously, made a lot of friends long the way, and involved myself with the club to where I have some influence.  Think about it.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Hammer002

[Gary Stevens]

I've been shooting PCC all year. When I am up, and scoring is being completed, I retrieve the flagged PCC from the cart, proceed to the start position carrying the PCC vertical, and simply stand there with the muzzle vertical. Upon MR I complete the process. Saves time, no muss or fuss. When finished I flag and carry the flagged PCC vertically directly back to the cart.

 

i haven't had a single negative comment. 

 

I think much much of this is unnecessary angst over PCC, or a few shooters who need to get their act together.

[Patrick Scott]

3 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

I've been shooting PCC all year. When I am up, and scoring is being completed, I retrieve the flagged PCC from the cart, proceed to the start position carrying the PCC vertical, and simply stand there with the muzzle vertical. Upon MR I complete the process. Saves time, no muss or fuss. When finished I flag and carry the flagged PCC vertically directly back to the cart.

 

i haven't had a single negative comment. 

 

I think much much of this is unnecessary angst over PCC, or a few shooters who need to get their act together.

Thats how I do it.

I haven't had any negative comment either. In fact I was given compliments for this at A7 last weekend.  

100% agree 

[Flatland Shooter]

8 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

...........When  I'm up, and scoring is being completed, I retrieve the flagged PCC from the cart, proceed to the start position carrying the PCC vertical, and simply stand there with the muzzle vertical. Upon MR I complete the process. Saves time, no muss or fuss. When finished I flag and carry the flagged PCC vertically directly back to the cart.

 

 

Shot a match last Fall and that's how I did it.  I was the only PCC shooter in the squad so got it approved right after the reading of the WSB.  Checked with the RO on each stage.   No problems, right?

 

On the third stage I finished a mediocre run and was carrying my gun (vertical with muzzle up) to my cart.  I would then take both to the berm and return the gun to the cart.  From 50 yards away I hear the RM yelling at me.  Spent the next 20 minutes reviewing the rule book with the RM to keep from being DQ'd.

 

Resolved that I was not DQ'd but on the remaining stages I must take the cart to the start position and remove it from the cart and return it to the cart only under the RO's supervision.

 

 

[Jollymon32]

17 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Of all you have posted, this is the sole valid point, and worthy of attention.  Personally, I think the rule could be more specific about how close to a berm, but even that could have its issues depending on range layout.

 

The rest of your points are hogwash.  If you represent yourself as an RO, you are subject to the rules at the time, not what you think they should be and even as you later then backed off to say the demands were mere requests is still out of line and introduces inconsistency in a match among ROs and even your interaction with competitors.  You have no business imposing yourself upon other competitors based on personal beliefs and if have done so, as described here, have no business being an RO.  If you don’t like the rules, take positive measures to influence change, but until that change occurs, you have an obligation to follow the rules as listed.  If you don’t like it, stay home.

 

You have gone on and on to paint other competitors than yourself as unworthy imbeciles you are forced to interact with because your ideas and morals are so elevated.  Are there mistakes made on the ranges?  Of course.  We all know under the pressure of a match, competition, and after the beep strange things can happen.  The current rules are very safety first oriented, even in light of your contradictory personal perspective comments.  No one is trying to be unsafe.  No ROs are trying to allow unsafe actions.  And the rules, even in their current state, when followed, create a more than a safe environment.  A person with a flagged PCC standing on the line with it upright next to an RO is hardly evidence of an unsafe environment.  And your holier than thou comments regarding its unsafe because YOU don’t know it’s unloaded or flagged are out of line especially when you also take into consideration you stand at the back of the line waiting or as an RO in close proximity to actual known loaded firearms, known to have the safety off, known to be in someone’s hands, and known to be actually being fired, and known that when the magazine is empty another will be reloaded and it will all continue with the possibility of that gun accidentally being turned the wrong way either by direct action or physical mishap, of which to be of far more potential danger than someone standing in one spot with a rifle held muzzle up.  Now Troy did mention he was ok with the muzzle being lowered at the line prior to make ready, but I’m sure he assumes of average intelligence to not assume this is while people are downrange.

 

Going to the point of ridiculousness to impose your will and ego upon others is far more a problem in this sport than the needing of some rule changes.  Mix that with ignorance of the rules themselves, and you get what you have been posting.  Maybe you don’t actually act the way you describe and it’s all internet banter, but if you do, you are not what this sport needs.  You don’t get to make it up as you go because you feel you have a better way or because your perspective of a rule or opinion of a competitor is that of being beneath you.  Get over yourself, learn the rules, work as a team, or stay home.

 

You posted a personal story, and here is mine.  When I first started shooting steel challenge, I was the next shooter and stepped into the box ( with holstered pistol ) to get my first view of the stage.  The RO came unglued.  Yelling at me I may not enter the box until he says so.  Though I hadn’t shot much steel challenge, I had thoroughly read the rules, and knew this wasn’t one of them.  After our squad finished, I politely asked him about stepping in the box before told to and where I could find the rule so I would make sure to be in compliance in the future.  He scoffed, and told me it was HIS RULE because he didn’t think it was safe to have someone standing in the box while people are down range because they don’t know what the person in the box is doing.  Sound familiar?  Equally ridiculous.  If you feel that much distrust and anxiety toward the other competitors we shoot with and the supervision of the ROs, though some deserve some evaluation, this sport may not be a good fit for you.  It involves guns, live ammo, and lots of different people, all of which in close proximity with some strict rules about safety to keep everyone safe.  No one can run around doing whatever they want because they think they can or should on either side of the rule debate.  Just as you think you want to be more strict by your perspective, that means someone else can think they can be more lenient.  Both of which confuse the competitors who aren’t savvy with the rules yet, and BOTH of which are in violation of the rules. What did I do to make a positive influence?  I learned the rules in and out and became GM in multiple divisions, allowing me to be taken a little more seriously, made a lot of friends long the way, and involved myself with the club to where I have some influence.  Think about it.

Ok

[gerritm]

50 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

Ok

Hope you never shoot a 3-gun match. 300 plus competitors all handling 2 long guns on practically every stage, bringing them up to the line with no supervision. Sure there is the occasional shooter who does not follow the rules as there is the same with USPSA pistol/pcc shooters. I can tell you just as many stories of new shooters violating rules with pistols as PCC's. Unfortunately most do not read the rules before coming out to their first match. 

 

We self govern our sport & safety past the obvious posted ruled for the most part. We are adults & SO's beyond just stepping up to the line. RO/SO cannot be the watchdog police force for all and be everywhere. 

 

After shooting PCC since the beginning and 3-gun for years we have learned to be respectful of the MD and the range. Simple thing to do before shooting a match for the first time & the first stage, knowing the USPSA rules for PCC handling, is to talk to the MD and the RO to see what they prefer on how to handle the PCC locally. Most will give you how they want it done. Follow their local "rules". They appreciate you asking. 

 

Guide new shooters especially with the PCC. Show them what to do, where to keep it on a stage, where to un-bag or take off cart. if you see a problem, talk to that shooter and if it persists have an RO DQ him or her.

 

Seems like most matches here in the Houston area have calmed down with PCC's being new and have adopted a general set of local rules to go one step beyond the USPSA rules.

 

gerritm