What is Unsafe Gun Handling for a PCC before Make Ready is issued?

[HoMiE]

37 minutes ago, Dpolk said:

I feel the chamber flag should have never been removed until comand is given, I won’t even unbag until make ready command is given. 

If you walk up with a bagged PCC, it’s no different than a bagged pistol. No touching until the MR command is given. 

[Dpolk]

I see some unbag at sage area and carry the rifle over, I just had the bag to a friend and go to work. 

[HoMiE]

19 minutes ago, Dpolk said:

I see some unbag at sage area and carry the rifle over, I just had the bag to a friend and go to work. 

You can un bag at safety area or designated table or berm. Pcc must stay muzzle up and no touching until given MR command. 

[Dpolk]

3 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

You can un bag at safety area or designated table or berm. Pcc must stay muzzle up and no touching until given MR command. 

Yeah I know it leagl to do so, I am just over cautious and like to make sure to not get a DQ. I don’t shoot PCC often though. 

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

You can un bag at safety area or designated table or berm. Pcc must stay muzzle up and no touching until given MR command. 

In a safety area you can handle all you want. I.e. sight pic, turn on dot etc. BUT against a berm or at a staging area you are correct.

[CHA-LEE]

I talked to Troy (DNROI) about my question yesterday at the Area 7 match. His definition of PCC unsafe gun handling is initiating bolt manipulation before the Make Ready command is given. He also stated that in the scenario I described (Shooter standing next to RO in start position with range clear but no Make Ready given) the shooter can lower the muzzle down range as long as no sweeping occurs. He also said he is going to submit a ruling on this in the near future.

 

Now we have a definitive answer on this from the proverbial horses mouth.

[Bkreutz]

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I talked to Troy (DNROI) about my question yesterday at the Area 7 match. His definition of PCC unsafe gun handling is initiating bolt manipulation before the Make Ready command is given. He also stated that in the scenario I described (Shooter standing next to RO in start position with range clear but no Make Ready given) the shooter can lower the muzzle down range as long as no sweeping occurs. He also said he is going to submit a ruling on this in the near future.

 

Now we have a definitive answer on this from the proverbial horses mouth.

 

In that light, why can't pistol shooters draw their pistols and point them downrange as long as they don't rack the slides? (I know, safety).  FMR, I think I'm just going to walk away when a PCC shooter comes to the line, these rulings are like croquet in "Alice in Wonderland" (or Calvinball).

Edited June 23, 2018 by Bkreutz

[IHAVEGAS]

34 minutes ago, Bkreutz said:

 

In that light, why can't pistol shooters draw their pistols and point them downrange as long as they don't rack the slides? (I know, safety). 

 

Consistency is of great value when dealing with large groups, particularly when being consistent would have corresponded to long established methods.

 

But, it is a lot better to have a ruling I think is bad (not unsafe, just dumb and another difference to keep track of) than wonder what the ruling should be. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:13 PM, Sarge said:

 it’s amazing how many people don’t know that you can’t turn optic on unless in a safe area or under RO supervision.

 

I've been shooting OPEN for 11 years, and I didn't know it.    

 

There have been a few times when I "twisted the dial" a bit,

with the gun in the holster.    

[davsco]

4 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

 

In that light, why can't pistol shooters draw their pistols and point them downrange as long as they don't rack the slides? (I know, safety).

 

when flagged, the pcc is pretty much just a stick, really nothing you could do to light off a round.  when unholstered, handgun trigger is accessible and of course IF there was a round in the pipe and IF someone pulled the trigger, it could go bang.

[davsco]

7 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

I've been shooting OPEN for 11 years, and I didn't know it.    

 

There have been a few times when I "twisted the dial" a bit,

with the gun in the holster.    

not aware of any rules against playing with sights or optics on a handgun while holstered.  frankly i think it's a dumb rule for pcc's (to not be able to turn dot on or off while carted).  assuming the flag stays in the chamber (or even down the magwell but blocking the bolt), that pcc will not go bang.

[Bkreutz]

10 minutes ago, davsco said:

when flagged, the pcc is pretty much just a stick, really nothing you could do to light off a round.  when unholstered, handgun trigger is accessible and of course IF there was a round in the pipe and IF someone pulled the trigger, it could go bang.

 

IF it was loaded and the hammer/striker is cocked (which it is not except after make ready, the flag on a PCC is removed at the make ready so it's pretty much the same) You're comparing an unloaded rifle to a loaded pistol.

 

[Sarge]

32 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

I've been shooting OPEN for 11 years, and I didn't know it.    

 

There have been a few times when I "twisted the dial" a bit,

with the gun in the holster.    

That’s fine so don’t panic. PCC Shooters can’t do it though unless in safe area or under RO supervision. And therein lies the confusion in my opinion

[Flatland Shooter]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

That’s fine so don’t panic. PCC Shooters can’t do it though unless in safe area or under RO supervision. And therein lies the confusion in my opinion

 

So once Troy gets the PCC Unsafe Gun handling formalized as manipulating the bolt before the make ready command , doesn't that take turning on/off the red dot off the table?

Edited June 23, 2018 by Flatland Shooter

[DKorn]

59 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

So once Troy gets the PCC Unsafe Gun handling formalized as manipulating the bolt before the make ready command , doesn't that take turning on/off the red dot off the table?

 

If that’s the clarification, then I’d say yes. 

 

Right now, until that happens, the rule specifically says that turning on/off dots is not allowed except under supervision of an RO. 

[davsco]

2 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

 

IF it was loaded and the hammer/striker is cocked (which it is not except after make ready, the flag on a PCC is removed at the make ready so it's pretty much the same) You're comparing an unloaded rifle to a loaded pistol.

 

just saying with a flag in a pcc, there is no way it's going bang, even with a round in the chamber.  not the case with a handgun out of the holster.  my point/thought is you should be able to play with a dot on a flagged pcc just like you can with a holstered handgun, as neither are able to go bang in those conditions.

[Sarge]

Just now, davsco said:

just saying with a flag in a pcc, there is no way it's going bang, even with a round in the chamber.  not the case with a handgun out of the holster.  my point/thought is you should be able to play with a dot on a flagged pcc just like you can with a holstered handgun, as neither are able to go bang in those conditions.

Agreed. Not taking sight pics I understand but turning your dot on before make ready? Dumb rule. Even dumber is you can’t turn it off after range is clear while checking scores etc. Double dumb.

[Jollymon32]

I have a different perspective.

 

The taboo of fingering a firearm while there are people down range has nothing to do with your knowledge of whether the firearm can go BANG or not.  

 

My perspective is that others have no clue that the firearm cannot go BANG.  They have no clue that the firearm is unloaded, they have no clue that the firearm has a flag in the chamber.  All they know is that someone is fingering a firearm.  

 

What I would like to see from NROI is that the rules of handling FIREARMS are consistently applied to all FIREARMS.  Absolutely no handling of any firearms until the RO issues the make ready command.  For PCC, rifle must remain in the cart or bagged until the MR command is issued.  The RANGE IS SAFE command is not issued until the PCC is once again bagged or carted.

 

[Dr. Phil]

29 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

I have a different perspective.

 

The taboo of fingering a firearm while there are people down range has nothing to do with your knowledge of whether the firearm can go BANG or not.  

 

My perspective is that others have no clue that the firearm cannot go BANG.  They have no clue that the firearm is unloaded, they have no clue that the firearm has a flag in the chamber.  All they know is that someone is fingering a firearm.  

 

What I would like to see from NROI is that the rules of handling FIREARMS are consistently applied to all FIREARMS.  Absolutely no handling of any firearms until the RO issues the make ready command.  For PCC, rifle must remain in the cart or bagged until the MR command is issued.  The RANGE IS SAFE command is not issued until the PCC is once again bagged or carted.

 

So would this include the million times you see people with their hand on a holstered gun while walking around? That is "handling" isn't it? See it at every stage of every match. Seems like there can't be "a" rule for all guns.

And then there are the trap and skeet guys. Muzzle resting on their foot between shots, gun over the shoulder walking around, etc.

Kind of tough to have a rule for all guns...

[ac4wordplay]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

So would this include the million times you see people with their hand on a holstered gun while walking around? That is "handling" isn't it? See it at every stage of every match. Seems like there can't be "a" rule for all guns.

 

 

Seriously?

 

Check the USPSA rule book's appendix A3 glossary definition of "handling" - doesn't it still include the phrase "...while the trigger is functionally accessible" ?

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Jollymon32 said:

My perspective is that others have no clue that the firearm cannot go BANG.  They have no clue that the firearm is unloaded, they have no clue that the firearm has a flag in the chamber.  All they know is that someone is fingering a firearm.  

 

 

And finding out you did not need to duck and s#!t yourself after you have already ducked and shat yourself does not do it for me. 

[Dr. Phil]

1 hour ago, Jollymon32 said:

What I would like to see from NROI is that the rules of handling FIREARMS are consistently applied to all FIREARMS.  Absolutely no handling of any firearms until the RO issues the make ready command.

(my italics)

This. I didn't write this or the rules. Simply asked the question if it includes all handling. Seriously.

I think Cha-Lee is right. The rules need to be refined. Seems like everybody has their own interpretation.

[Hammer002]

On 6/23/2018 at 3:24 AM, CHA-LEE said:

I talked to Troy (DNROI) about my question yesterday at the Area 7 match. His definition of PCC unsafe gun handling is initiating bolt manipulation before the Make Ready command is given. He also stated that in the scenario I described (Shooter standing next to RO in start position with range clear but no Make Ready given) the shooter can lower the muzzle down range as long as no sweeping occurs. He also said he is going to submit a ruling on this in the near future.

 

Now we have a definitive answer on this from the proverbial horses mouth.

 

Thanks for posting this.

[cody6477]

Reading through all these, I keep thinking about the meaning of "make ready."  Essentially, you're not supposed to do anything that "makes ready" until the RO tells you to.  So no manipulation of anything to make the gun ready.

[Flatland Shooter]

2 hours ago, cody6477 said:

Reading through all these, I keep thinking about the meaning of "make ready."  Essentially, you're not supposed to do anything that "makes ready" until the RO tells you to.  So no manipulation of anything to make the gun ready.

 

Even though PCC continues to grow in popularity, we still have a few ROs in our area that are not well versed in how to handle the PCC shooter.  What we've done for a while now unless the RO states differently at the start of the stage, is ALL gun handling occurs after the "Make Ready" command.  That also means we show up at the start position with the gun bagged or in a cart.  And that's where they stay until the RO gives the "Make Ready".