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What is Unsafe Gun Handling for a PCC before Make Ready is issued?

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11 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

It is in the addendums. 

PCC 5.2.1.4 

Hence the rulebook
OK - I reread your post...I originally thought you were asking the question...hence my raging posts...
Yes, It is allowed to be "pointed" at someone...however it's not sweeping.  Sweeping is an action while handling your weapon, whether it's a pistol or PCC.

Edited by racerba

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couple of documents that may help.  And remember, anything posted in down range is considered a rule, or it’s interpretation.

 

.  https://uspsa.org/viewer/PCC_Addendum.pdf

 

 

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/uspsa/pcc-handling.pdf

 

 and I have to make a self correction.  An open bolt is no longer acceptable as an alternative to a flag.  A flag must be used.

 

I’ll also point out, for the RO supervision discussion, it’s “under supervision and direct command of an RO.”

 

last, to bat at the hornets nest a little, it has been said a slung PCC is the same as a holstered pistol and therefore rule 10.5.5.1 applies, making an exception to sweeping of the lower extremities not a DQ such as when walking, etc, however must be kept reasonably upright.  Which is, I believe, exactly where the reasonably upright came from.  Walking around with it slung and naturally sweeping the feet and legs is overlooked, but it’s not ok to bend over, such as resetting a popper, and sweep everyone behind you.  Let me say, if further discussion ensues, I have always been completely against the slung PCC and was very surprised it stayed after hearing rumors it was going to be taken out.  So, these certainly aren’t my interpretations.  So therefore I wonder.......PCC on the foot a DQ??  Geez....I really dunno.  Guess it depends?  Lol

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hammer002

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5 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

PCC on the foot a DQ??  Geez....I really dunno.  Guess it depends?  Lol

 

 

 

 

IMO - it's different than being slung because you are handling the PCC when you put it on your foot...therefore sweeping...
Not sure about a slung PCC and bending over...I don't see any rule on that.  If you have a holstered pistol and you bend over, your muzzle just might be pointing at other competitors, but it's not a DQ.  As long as you are not touching the slung PCC with your hand, I don't see it as a DQ.  Of course, one should reasonably try not to do that for more than one reasons.  The reasonably upright was for you holding the PCC in your hand after the If Clear Flag command.
 

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4 hours ago, SDL said:

Is resting a flagged PCC on your foot while waiting considered sweeping?

Yep. Just sat in on a class last weekend. ANY SWEEPING is a DQ. Specifically said if carrying muzzle down and sweeps your foot DQ. Even carrying laying flat in a cart if it ever points at anybody’s body part DQ.

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54 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yep. Just sat in on a class last weekend. ANY SWEEPING is a DQ. Specifically said if carrying muzzle down and sweeps your foot DQ. Even carrying laying flat in a cart if it ever points at anybody’s body part DQ.

 

everyone i have seen either carries their rifle in a case, or mounted to a cart (generally cart mounts are angled down). If it's mounted in the cart, I don't see how it's any different than being cased, and cart-mounted guns definitely point at people's feet on a regular basis. I wouldn't call that 'sweeping'.

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2 hours ago, racerba said:

handling the PCC when you put it on your foot...therefore sweeping...

 

Definition of sweeping in the rule book (p 60) just says pointing instead of pointing and handling. Just saying, not trying to argue the point ( :) ). 

 

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Even carrying laying flat in a cart if it ever points at anybody’s body part DQ.

 

Did they explain how this does not contradict PCC 5.2.1.4 ? 

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3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

everyone i have seen either carries their rifle in a case, or mounted to a cart (generally cart mounts are angled down). If it's mounted in the cart, I don't see how it's any different than being cased, and cart-mounted guns definitely point at people's feet on a regular basis. I wouldn't call that 'sweeping'.

I may tend to agree but that’s not what’s being taught. Your fault, my fault, anybody’s fault, if it sweeps, DQ.

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2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Definition of sweeping in the rule book (p 60) just says pointing instead of pointing and handling. Just saying, not trying to argue the point ( :) ). 

 

 

Did they explain how this does not contradict PCC 5.2.1.4 ? 

Nope. But I gathered there are still significant issues regarding PCC 

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10 hours ago, Sarge said:

I may tend to agree but that’s not what’s being taught. Your fault, my fault, anybody’s fault, if it sweeps, DQ.

 

Absolutely incorrect.  Carted has many times been clarified the same as bagged.  The situation you mention above, just laying flat on top of a cart is an issue.  Without searching for exact wording, there is wording pertaining to on a "3 gun cart" or the like.  Troy and the NROI have clarified this as being the same as bagged so long as a flag is used and angled downward.  However, the rule also says a particular range (most i have been to actually do) may opt to require bagging for transport, not allowing the use of the cart.

 

If what you "sat in" on was a local thing, that's fine.  If its someone supposedly teaching USPSA rules, this would be incorrect or a misguided personal interpretation.  Unless its Troy himself, and he has changed positions completely, a carted/flagged PCC is the same as bagged and is not subject to the sweeping rule.  Personally, I would rather it clarify lower extremities, cause If the cart falls over and sweeps the crowd, I wouldn't be comfortable with that.  But thats my personal opinion.. 

 

PCC 5.2.1 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine:

 

PCC 5.2.1.1 Detachable magazines removed.

 

PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

 

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical and a chamber safety flag in place. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

 

PCC 5.2.1.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

 

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a “staging area” for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

 

PCC 5.2.1.6 Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt closed on a chamber safety flag.

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

Edited by Hammer002

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14 hours ago, Sarge said:

I may tend to agree but that’s not what’s being taught. Your fault, my fault, anybody’s fault, if it sweeps, DQ.

if it sits in the cart and no one's near it and someone walks by and it points at their feet...who gets DQ?

Edited by racerba

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18 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Absolutely incorrect.  Carted has many times been clarified the same as bagged.  The situation you mention above, just laying flat on top of a cart is an issue.  Without searching for exact wording, there is wording pertaining to on a "3 gun cart" or the like.  Troy and the NROI have clarified this as being the same as bagged so long as a flag is used and angled downward.  However, the rule also says a particular range (most i have been to actually do) may opt to require bagging for transport, not allowing the use of the cart.

 

If what you "sat in" on was a local thing, that's fine.  If its someone supposedly teaching USPSA rules, this would be incorrect or a misguided personal interpretation.  Unless its Troy himself, and he has changed positions completely, a carted/flagged PCC is the same as bagged and is not subject to the sweeping rule.  Personally, I would rather it clarify lower extremities, cause If the cart falls over and sweeps the crowd, I wouldn't be comfortable with that.  But thats my personal opinion.. 

 

PCC 5.2.1 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine:

 

PCC 5.2.1.1 Detachable magazines removed.

 

PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

 

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical and a chamber safety flag in place. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

 

PCC 5.2.1.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

 

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a “staging area” for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

 

PCC 5.2.1.6 Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt closed on a chamber safety flag.

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

Why would I sit in on a “local thing”? We don’t allow local rules in our game. It was a USPSA level I Seminar.

  I heard if the rifle is uncased and sweeps at any time it’s a DQ.

 You don’t have to quote rules to me. I sat and read them after the seminar and certainly see the contradictions.

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19 hours ago, racerba said:

if you loaded your PCC, can you look down the barrel?

 

19 hours ago, racerba said:

if you have your PCC pointing up and a plane flys overhead, you are sweeping the plane, is it a DQ?

 

 

19 hours ago, racerba said:

If you have your PCC flagged and it was pointiing at a bird in the tree, is it a DQ???

 

1 hour ago, racerba said:

if it sits in the cart and no one's near it and someone walks by and it points at their feet...who get's DQ?

 

Nope, won't do it, I am not saying a word. Not one word. 

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2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Why would I sit in on a “local thing”? We don’t allow local rules in our game. It was a USPSA level I Seminar.

  I heard if the rifle is uncased and sweeps at any time it’s a DQ.

 You don’t have to quote rules to me. I sat and read them after the seminar and certainly see the contradictions.

the intent apperas to be that mounted in a rack seems to be the same as cased. for sure if it NOT cased/mounted, then yeah, any sweeping is a dq. But cased/mounted would be dumb to call a dq, and would probably invoke epithets such as 'rules-fanatic'.

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Nope, won't do it, I am not saying a word. Not one word. 

You’re right, that wasn’t one word, it was 13. Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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6 hours ago, Sarge said:

Why would I sit in on a “local thing”? We don’t allow local rules in our game. It was a USPSA level I Seminar.

  I heard if the rifle is uncased and sweeps at any time it’s a DQ.

 You don’t have to quote rules to me. I sat and read them after the seminar and certainly see the contradictions.

 

Dude, I have no idea who you are or why you would do anything, nor do I mean you and ounce of disrespect.  I don't know who "we" is either.  The rule specifically says ranges may allow or disallow different operations.  My comments were toward whoever is passing on bad information, because a carted pcc is not subject to sweeping.  You said, or passed on from another, to the contrary.  I posted the rules as such.  You say, "if you hear," well, I'm sure we all "hear" all kinds of things on ranges.  I know I do.  I recently shot a level 2 match needing 3 Range Master interactions on our squad alone due to incorrect RO calls/assumptions.  There is a ton of misinformation out there or misunderstandings at best.  I meant no disrespect in quoting rules nor do I deny you may have a vast understanding of the rules.  I was simply attempting an internet discussion and delivering my point with data.  I am glad we can admit the contradictions and possibly move toward their correction.  A carted PCC cannot sweep same as a cased PCC cannot sweep so long as a flag is present.

 

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the intent apperas to be that mounted in a rack seems to be the same as cased. for sure if it NOT cased/mounted, then yeah, any sweeping is a dq. But cased/mounted would be dumb to call a dq, and would probably invoke epithets such as 'rules-fanatic'.

 

This^^^

Edited by Hammer002

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4 hours ago, racerba said:

if it sits in the cart and no one's near it and someone walks by and it points at their feet...who gets DQ?

 

Had this happen to us last Fall.  A shooter from a different squad walks in front of two parked carts and immediately goes to the stage RO to complain.

 

No DQ discussed but the RO did require we move our carts over to the berm.

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4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the intent apperas to be that mounted in a rack seems to be the same as cased. for sure if it NOT cased/mounted, then yeah, any sweeping is a dq. But cased/mounted would be dumb to call a dq, and would probably invoke epithets such as 'rules-fanatic'.

But if an RO is taught something it doesn’t make him a fanatic does it?

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6 minutes ago, Sarge said:

But if an RO is taught something it doesn’t make him a fanatic does it?

i would question whether I really understood something if I was taught something that doesn't make sense and appears to conflict with at least 1 rule. I would ask more questions. If you can be swept by a rifle in a rack with a chamber flag, then it makes no sense whatsoever to specifically allow transporting them that way, and specifically allow them to be non-vertical.

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My general observations on this topic is that over the course of PCC being a division in USPSA:

1. The rules have evolved about handling (case, no-case, slung, cart...)

2. The rules have evolved about written stage briefs (starting positions...)

3. That the attitude of Match Directors, RM's, CRO's, RO's and shooters on the division and the folks who participate has ranged from embracing to being dismissive

 

Given the above it is not surprising that  we are struggling still with the rules-of-engagement for the division.  I expect stability will arrive in the not too distant future and many of these differences in perception and interpretation will subside.

 

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i would question whether I really understood something if I was taught something that doesn't make sense and appears to conflict with at least 1 rule. I would ask more questions. If you can be swept by a rifle in a rack with a chamber flag, then it makes no sense whatsoever to specifically allow transporting them that way, and specifically allow them to be non-vertical.

Agreed

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1 hour ago, phoenixsomd said:

3. That the attitude of Match Directors, RM's, CRO's, RO's and shooters on the division and the folks who participate has ranged from embracing to being dismissive

 

 

I am never dismissive of people. PCC on the other hand....😂

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