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What is Unsafe Gun Handling for a PCC before Make Ready is issued?


CHA-LEE

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On 6/9/2018 at 7:15 AM, CHA-LEE said:

I will play devils advocate with 10.5.2.1..... That rule says under the direct supervision of an RO. It says nothing about range commands. So if the shooter is standing in the start position next to the RO they can do whatever they want whenever they want because the RO is “supervising” them?

 

Sometimes its easy to go a little far when thinking about new things and playing the devil's advocate and ignore things we already know.  Under the supervision of an RO is well known to start at make ready unless some other specific situation has happened where a RO has specifically told someone to do something or otherwise verbally assumed supervision or agreed when asked.  With a handgun you cant unholster the gun just because a RO is standing next to you.  Because a RO is nearby, next to, or 20 feet away does not constitute under supervision except when considering the second or third RO for a stage, but still, there is a clear verbal assumption of supervision by the primary RO.  Under supervision of an RO kinda has to include the RO being aware of the fact.  lol.  

 

In several forums, Troy has made a differentiation, or pointed out a difference, in pcc rules that apply specifically to bagging/unbagging vs another set of rules that take place after.  Meaning, to unbag or uncart, the pcc must be facing the berm.  It is then uncarted/unbagged and the standard is muzzle always facing the berm, maintaining the standard the gun may not be otherwise manipulated except to remove it from its stored position, and must be flagged..  As soon as walking away from the berm for transport, the muzzle must then be reasonably vertical at all times.   A flag may not be removed unless under RO supervision. 

Edited by Hammer002
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3 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Sometimes its easy to go a little far when thinking about new things and playing the devil's advocate and ignore things we already know.  Under the supervision of an RO is well known to start at make ready unless some other specific situation has happened where a RO has specifically told someone to do something or otherwise verbally assumed supervision or agreed when asked.  With a handgun you cant unholster the gun just because a RO is standing next to you.  Because a RO is nearby, next to, or 20 feet away does not constitute under supervision except when considering the second or third RO for a stage, but still, there is a clear verbal assumption of supervision by the primary RO.  Under supervision of an RO kinda has to include the RO being aware of the fact.  lol.  

 

In several forums, Troy has made a differentiation, or pointed out a difference, in pcc rules that apply specifically to bagging/unbagging vs another set of rules that take place after.  Meaning, to unbag or uncart, the pcc must be facing the berm.  It is then uncarted/unbagged and the standard is muzzle always facing the berm, maintaining the standard the gun may not be otherwise manipulated except to remove it from its stored position, and must be flagged..  As soon as walking away from the berm for transport, the muzzle must then be reasonably vertical at all times.   A flag may not be removed unless under RO supervision. 

 

This explanation makes sense and seems to clarify what we already know,  under the rule set.  I'd be comfortable supporting an RO action under this. 

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Personally, since first reading it, I thought 10.5.2.1 would have better served as 3 different rules.  Cha-lee, if it’s a cited rule for the purpose of DQ, it looks like this one covers the muzzle pointing, or worse, sweeping.  I’d have to look up the number for no flag, removing the flag, or a bolt closing on an open/unflagged chamber.

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6 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Sometimes its easy to go a little far when thinking about new things and playing the devil's advocate and ignore things we already know.  Under the supervision of an RO is well known to start at make ready unless some other specific situation has happened where a RO has specifically told someone to do something or otherwise verbally assumed supervision or agreed when asked.  With a handgun you cant unholster the gun just because a RO is standing next to you.  Because a RO is nearby, next to, or 20 feet away does not constitute under supervision except when considering the second or third RO for a stage, but still, there is a clear verbal assumption of supervision by the primary RO.  Under supervision of an RO kinda has to include the RO being aware of the fact.  lol.  

 

In several forums, Troy has made a differentiation, or pointed out a difference, in pcc rules that apply specifically to bagging/unbagging vs another set of rules that take place after.  Meaning, to unbag or uncart, the pcc must be facing the berm.  It is then uncarted/unbagged and the standard is muzzle always facing the berm, maintaining the standard the gun may not be otherwise manipulated except to remove it from its stored position, and must be flagged..  As soon as walking away from the berm for transport, the muzzle must then be reasonably vertical at all times.   A flag may not be removed unless under RO supervision. 

 

There is nothing in the rule book that defines the Start/Stop of "RO Supervision" and its association with issued Range Commands or not. While your assessment of the situation is logical and what we would expect in most situation there are NO rules that support this definition. We need to look at this from a perspective of an Arbitration, which MUST adhere to only the rules and definitions defined within the rule book. We also can't apply Pistol Holstered/Unholstered unsafe gun handling states because a PCC is never holstered thus can't be unholstered, EVER.

 

As it is today, if a shooter was standing in the shooting area next to an RO and they start finger banging their PCC before Make Ready is given and the RO DQ's the shooter for Unsafe Gun Handling this would easily be overturned in an Arbitration because there is no definition within the rules that requires a Make Ready before gun handling can occur and there is no linkage of RO Supervision to issued Range Commands. As stated before in this thread, there is no definition of what Unsafe Gun Handling is, when it starts, or whatever else once the PCC shooter is standing in the start potion and the RO is present.

Edited by CHA-LEE
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2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

As it is today, if a shooter was standing in the shooting area next to an RO and they start finger banging their PCC before Make Ready is given and the RO DQ's the shooter for Unsafe Gun Handling this would easily be overturned in an Arbitration because there is no definition within the rules that requires a Make Ready before gun handling can occur and there is no linkage of RO Supervision to issued Range Commands. As stated before in this thread, there is no definition of what Unsafe Gun Handling is, when it starts, or whatever else once the PCC shooter is standing in the start potion and the RO is present.

I disagree.  Rule 10.5.2.1 clearly states that "all other gun handling" MUST be done under the supervision of an RO.  Unless the RO gives the command "MR", he is not under the RO's supervision, regardless of where the RO is.  So I would say that you cannot be finger banging your PCC prior to the "MR" command.  So you can bring your PCC to the line and use the side berm to uncase your PCC "ONLY", that's about all you can do with it. 


Rule 8.3.1 "Make Ready" mentions Under the DIRECT supervision of the RO...
 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. 

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer... 

Edited by racerba
added 8.3.1
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2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

There is nothing in the rule book that defines the Start/Stop of "RO Supervision" and its association with issued Range Commands or not. While your assessment of the situation is logical and what we would expect in most situation there are NO rules that support this definition. We need to look at this from a perspective of an Arbitration, which MUST adhere to only the rules and definitions defined within the rule book. We also can't apply Pistol Holstered/Unholstered unsafe gun handling states because a PCC is never holstered thus can't be unholstered, EVER.

 

As it is today, if a shooter was standing in the shooting area next to an RO and they start finger banging their PCC before Make Ready is given and the RO DQ's the shooter for Unsafe Gun Handling this would easily be overturned in an Arbitration because there is no definition within the rules that requires a Make Ready before gun handling can occur and there is no linkage of RO Supervision to issued Range Commands. As stated before in this thread, there is no definition of what Unsafe Gun Handling is, when it starts, or whatever else once the PCC shooter is standing in the start potion and the RO is present.

 

How about: 10.5.1 "Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer."

 

The "in response to a direct command issued by an Range Officer" seems pretty clear. I cannot walk up to an RO and fiddle with my firearm because of proximity. The RO has to directly tell me to do so.

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Man you guys are digging way too hard. I don’t think under RO supervision needs clarified. Look at 8.3.1

Make Ready

” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of

Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor

must face down range blah blah blah.

  Of course I could argue that nowhere does it say the RO issues the range command. ?

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6 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

As it is today, if a shooter was standing in the shooting area next to an RO and they start finger banging their PCC before Make Ready is given and the RO DQ's the shooter for Unsafe Gun Handling this would easily be overturned in an Arbitration because there is no definition within the rules that requires a Make Ready before gun handling can occur and there is no linkage of RO Supervision to issued Range Commands. As stated before in this thread, there is no definition of what Unsafe Gun Handling is, when it starts, or whatever else once the PCC shooter is standing in the start potion and the RO is present.

 

 

With respect, there is absolutely, positively no way I could disagree with you more.  On both assessment AND projected outcome.  At some point common sense comes into play, such as we don’t need page long definitions of RO supervision or the like.  If the RO is asked was he supervising the shooter at the time, and he says, No, I gave him no commands nor any reason to believe I was paying attention to him, there was no supervision.  Supervision has its own definition in the English language, the uspsa doesn’t need to come up with its own.  Furthermore, if a RM or MD overturns a call as to a shooter’s being unsafe and the RO can articulate it at all, they are unworthy of their position if overriding a lack of safety and I believe the highest judgement in the uspsa would agree.  Even if just under the general unsafe gun handling standards.  With respect, again, you are way overthinking it.  This type of lawyer type argument is fun in scoring, but has no place when discussing safety.  And you know this.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Man you guys are digging way too hard. I don’t think under RO supervision needs clarified. Look at 8.3.1

Make Ready

” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of

Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor

must face down range blah blah blah.

  Of course I could argue that nowhere does it say the RO issues the range command. ?

 

This is what I was referring to earlier.  This.  Exactly this.  And yes, digging way too hard and overthinking a pretty simple point.  Safety shouldn’t have such a perceived grey area.  And it doesn’t.

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4 hours ago, David.Hylton said:

 

How about: 10.5.1 "Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer."

 

The "in response to a direct command issued by an Range Officer" seems pretty clear. I cannot walk up to an RO and fiddle with my firearm because of proximity. The RO has to directly tell me to do so.

 

 

Exactly.  

 

 

4 hours ago, racerba said:

I disagree.  Rule 10.5.2.1 clearly states that "all other gun handling" MUST be done under the supervision of an RO.  Unless the RO gives the command "MR", he is not under the RO's supervision, regardless of where the RO is.  So I would say that you cannot be finger banging your PCC prior to the "MR" command.  So you can bring your PCC to the line and use the side berm to uncase your PCC "ONLY", that's about all you can do with it. 


Rule 8.3.1 "Make Ready" mentions Under the DIRECT supervision of the RO...
 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. 

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer... 

 

 

Exactly.

 

lol.  Come on Cha-lee. You know this stuff.  Devils advocate only goes so far, man.

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Then at what point does it become officially unsafe gun handling? Tipping the muzzle a few degrees away from vertical? 45 degrees from vertical? Racking the bolt back with the flag still installed? I can go on and on with all of the varied stages of gun handling. There is NOT a clear definition of when unsafe gun handling starts with a PCC.

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1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

Then at what point does it become officially unsafe gun handling? Tipping the muzzle a few degrees away from vertical? 45 degrees from vertical? Racking the bolt back with the flag still installed? I can go on and on with all of the varied stages of gun handling. There is NOT a clear definition of when unsafe gun handling starts with a PCC.

 

When the RO can articulate as such and why.  Reasonably vertical is the rule, if the RO can articulate unreasonable, it’s DQ, and I don’t think anyone is out there measuring in degrees.  If the gun is lowered, it’s a DQ.  Same as the longtime question of 180 vs 181 vs 179, what can the RO articulate.  Racking a bolt with the flag in before make ready is a DQ. The rule clearly says bolt must be closed on flag.  If it’s not, nor locked back, anywhere in between is DQ, that one was easy.  You can go on and on about what would likely fit in unsafe gun handling.  As has always been, articulating the elements of that rule are up to the RO.  Some of your debate would simply fall on deaf ears in defense of a DQ, as many have tried before.  That’s not new either.  Starting to think you are just being hard headed now.  If not, propose some changes rather than implying PCC division can get away with murder because there’s not a specific rule against it.  Overall safe gun handling applies to all divisions and all competitors.  In PCC the rules even state what and how apply to both.  It seems you don’t want to see it.  If you really need proof, go to a major, shoot PCC, walk to the line, run the bolt on the rifle and lower the muzzle 45 degrees, all before the RO says make ready.  Get back to us on how it goes for ya and how far you get with arguing the rules don’t apply to PCC or with any other point made here.  You can bet 100 bucks with yourself...

Edited by Hammer002
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12 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Then at what point does it become officially unsafe gun handling? Tipping the muzzle a few degrees away from vertical? 45 degrees from vertical? Racking the bolt back with the flag still installed? I can go on and on with all of the varied stages of gun handling. There is NOT a clear definition of when unsafe gun handling starts with a PCC.

See hammer's reply about tipping the muzzle...

As far as what constitute unsafe gun handling...the rule is clear, no handling except for casing and uncasing (I don't think you should even touch the gun to uncase it until the RO gives you the command, but that's another topic):

 

13 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. 

 

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If it is a seated start, or there is some other reason for the shooter to sit or squat as part of his stage preparation, and the "reasonably vertical" gun ends up pointed at the r.o.'s head, is it a dq? 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

If it is a seated start, or there is some other reason for the shooter to sit or squat as part of his stage preparation, and the "reasonably vertical" gun ends up pointed at the r.o.'s head, is it a dq? 

 

 

 

That would be sweeping for sure.  And certainly a DQ.  The same as if a shooter came up out of the chair pointing a pistol at the RO or did so while making ready.  What happens to a shooter who faces up range for el pres and unholsters the pistol to make ready, still facing uprange?  Most PCC starts, especially such as that, dictate muzzle pointing down range.  The reasonably vertical is referring to carry and transport.  

Edited by Hammer002
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15 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

That would be sweeping for sure.

 

Do not want to mess with the direction of the thread.

Sweeping is allowed on the draw (shooters leg) and with a holstered pistol (shooter sitting down & holstered gun pointing at shooter or other person). 

If a pcc gun is held in the prescribed safe manner (reasonably vertical) perhaps it is a dq. 

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“PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.“

 

I added the emphasis. 

 

From appendix A3 (page 60) of the rulebook:

“Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body.”

 

Edited by DKorn
Added the definition of sweeping.
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OK people - you are getting ridiculous with these scenarios...YES - it's a DQ when you are sweeping somebody else...the only exception for sweeping is for holstering and unholstering...and that even has limits.  IPSC got rid of that rule so if you sweep yourself during holstering and unholstering, you are DQ...do you really want to go that route????

 

Edited by racerba
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10 minutes ago, racerba said:

YES - it's a DQ when you are sweeping somebody else...the only exception for sweeping is for holstering and unholstering..

 

Once the pcc is in a mobile rack or carrier & a chamber flag is in place sweeping is allowed. 

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7 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Once the pcc is in a mobile rack or carrier & a chamber flag is in place sweeping is allowed. 

if the PCC is in a case, can you sweep anybody?

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8 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Once the pcc is in a mobile rack or carrier & a chamber flag is in place sweeping is allowed. 

if you loaded your PCC, can you look down the barrel?

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