perttime Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, davsco said: it really is a good idea to go over the basics with any new shooters. some clubs have a class or just a 15-30 minute safety and rules review for new shooters. with or without that, still a good idea to prep and coach new shooters on the basics (holstering, drawing, 180, finger, etc). ... ... We have a national requirement in Finland, for training and a basic exam, before we let newbies compete - or even practice on their own at club ranges. A few hours of theory, focusing on safety; and coaching at the range, doing simple stuff until we feel they can participate safely and hit targets. Edited June 8, 2018 by perttime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louu Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 None of us know exactly what happened in this situation cus we weren't there but here's something I've learned over the years. As soon as they walk up I check their clothing around the holster. I see a lot of guys wearing those pullovers with the strings and toggles on the sides right above the holster. I tell them either take it off, tuck it in or roll it up. It also seems like the people wearing those or other loose clothing are the fastest ones to holster their hot gun without paying attention. Those are the guys you really have to watch especially production guns/no manual safety guns. This goes for people wearing loose/untucked shirts in general. If it's someone I've never met before I usually give them some friendly advice later in the day to next time wear better fitting shirts then I'll point out some of the top shooters and how they are dressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said: Remember when McDonalds was sued successfully for selling hot coffee? In addition to the other reply, remember that the elderly woman in the hot coffee case was offered $400 after seeking several thousand to cover the skin grafts she needed. She took them to court when she didn’t have any other option to get injuries covered, still not seeking millions at all. The jury recommended the huge amount we all hear about (and the media never mentions the judge reducing to something more normal.) It wasn’t a frivolous lawsuit at all. CNN wants you to believe it was. And also... that AR15’s are evil. Edited June 8, 2018 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said: It wasn’t a frivilous lawsuit at all. CNN wants you to believe it was. And that AR15’s are evil. The CNN reference is just nasty. Cavemen have been been drinking freshly boiled coffee around campfires since the beginning of time, a few days before actually. Somebody should probably sue because fire is hot also and will do a number on you if you stick your naughty bits in it. If the world has moved on to cold coffee and participation trophies (and pcc) it is what it is I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 When ROing a shooter your "Control" of the situation is pretty much limited to verbal commands. Beyond that you are nothing more than the first witness to stupid stuff happening. We should all be vigilant in ensuring that safety is enforced when possible. But if someone makes ready, keeps their booger picker inside the trigger guard and slams the gun in the holster causing an AD, there is really nothing we can do to stop that during the moment. When I am ROing shooters who do the reholster slam after making ready I tell them that their actions are a good opportunity to end up with a bullet in the leg. The majority of the time the shooters doing this are oblivious to the potential ramification of their actions until you point it out. Most of them stop doing the aggressive reholster process after you point out the obvious dangers of doing so. Some don't care and keep doing it. In the end, this is a big kid game with big kid rules. If you want to send a round into your leg for doing something stupid, have fun with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalDep Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 15 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said: "this is a USPSA (or whatever) match and not a firearms safety class, if you do not already know how to handle your gun safely then you should not shoot the match" . Seems pretty clear. I have have no problems with standards, but I’ll be damned if I hold anyone to higher standards than myself. If you can’t give clear commands that support safety, then you are part of the problem. I’ve seen experts with tons of experience make mistakes as I’m sure others have as well. We can make excuses as to why someone else is an idiot, but the fact is that safety is the responsibility of the person running the range, and we can be safer with a little bit of ingenuity and thought and problems can be avoided. Some people would rather chastise than prevent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, SoCalDep said: I have have no problems with standards, but I’ll be damned if I hold anyone to higher standards than myself. If you can’t give clear commands that support safety, then you are part of the problem. ... Except, nowhere in the rules it says anything other than "make ready" to start the process of getting ready to shoot. Now, in the matches I have been locally there is a new shooter squad associated with one particular match and on the other match people are asked if they are new and then ROs are told to watch out for them. I don't see how we can do more short of treating everyone like an idiot. Also, after "make ready" not only I am loading my firearm, I am also going over my stage plan, clearing my mind, relaxing , mentally and physically getting prepared to shoot. I do not need/wish the RO to keep interrupting me with superfluous commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalDep Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 The "rules" are a far second place to safety. So is a stage plan, clearing the mind, relaxing, mentally and physically getting prepared to shoot, and anything else firearms related. PERIOD. I'm not saying we treat everyone like an idiot. What I'm saying is that as the people responsible for safety on a range, it is our absolute responsibility to make sure that range is as safe as possible while still allowing a fun match (nothing is completely safe). That means we need to be constantly thinking about what we can do better. One of those things we can do better is to understand the dynamics of human behavior and physiological training. If you don't expect everyone to show up a B or better shooter, then you better be prepared to deal with the realities that come with the lesser experienced. We need to keep in mind that it is "natural" to put the trigger finger on the trigger. I know it's a horrible inconvenience, but if our range commands started with "make ready and then safely holster with your finger on the frame", there might be a whole lot less DQs. Much, much more importantly, we'd be encouraging safe firearm manipulation. If an expert didn't or doesn't like it... then I'm more concerned about them than the new shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 On 6/7/2018 at 9:32 AM, Dlister70 said: I haven’t been ROing for very long, and it’s typically with guys that I’ve been shooting with for awhile who I know are safe, but this situation hits close to home and makes me want to pass off the timer if an unknown or new shooter comes up. At the end of the day, no one is going to criticize you for passing off the timer for a new shooter. You need to feel safe as an RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 6 hours ago, SoCalDep said: I know it's a horrible inconvenience, but if our range commands started with "make ready and then safely holster with your finger on the frame", there might be a whole lot less DQs. Much, much more importantly, we'd be encouraging safe firearm manipulation. If an expert didn't or doesn't like it... then I'm more concerned about them than the new shooter. True, but our range commands do not include this. There’s a reason that the RO course teaches that we should only use the official range commands and say as little else as possible when we have a shooter on the line. If our range commands could be improved, then suggestions should probably be sent to DNROI or the Board. Personally, I think having simple range commands that include as little unnecessary detail as possible is a good thing. It avoids confusion and standardizes things across the country and world. Techniques to improve safety and avoid DQs are something to be discussed during the shooters’ meeting, new shooters’ meeting, and maybe with new competitors in their squads- not on the line if at all possible. What happens if you tell a new shooter “when you load the gun, make sure that your finger is out of the trigger guard when you go to reholster,” and the shooter gets confused and pulls the gun out to make ready? You’ve just cost the shooter their match by adding unnecessary conversation prior to the official range commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 8 hours ago, SoCalDep said: If you can’t give clear commands that support safety, then you are part of the problem. safety is the responsibility of the person running the range, (USPSA) If you do not use the range commands specified in the book you will flunk the field part of the r.o. course. Emphasis is placed on everyone using the exact same commands consistently and clearly. Again, USPSA, safe gun handling is the responsibility of the shooter and only the shooter. Other aspects of safety fall on the r.o. but the r.o. is in no way accountable for something like a 180 break or a holstering error. DKorn & I were typing at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I know of one guy did the same thing with 1911. 45 acp.. what at gets me is the race to put gun in holster when finished shooting,, some guys think their still on the clock.. who can unload show clear the fastest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) When I was new(er) I wish one of the classes or experts offering advice had mentioned the way clothing can interfere with draws and reholstering. And more attention to draws in general. So much emphasis in the general gun world is on concealed carry and wearing your shirt out in order to hide your gun that we may forget that it introduces an extra risk. If I wear a different style shirt every other day then I may be fumbling that much more in a CCW situation. At least if I have a tucked-in smooth shirt for a match it's one less thing to get in the way. At the penalty of showing off my man boobs ;-/ Anyone with a few extra pounds isn't willingly going into a stretchy tight shirt. Maybe start talking about clothing in the various new shooter info pages that float around? I rarely see it mentioned. Anyone know what happened with the ND guy? Is his leg OK? What did they do for first aid? etc. Edited June 9, 2018 by Frankly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 We had a guy using a loose sweater at a recent newbie coaching session. He saw the light and took it off after some fumbling with holstering and drawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpYoursPal Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Holy crap! Scary stuff. I've only done about 8 or so matches but I've yet to see anyone get DQed or do anything especially unsafe. Shooting yourself in the leg is pretty nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 l loaned a gun to a gentleman who had been bugging me to let him shoot it. Had about a pound and a half trigger pull and I told him several times to go to a safe area and try it. Didn't and on the draw he shot himself. Went in right below the end of the holster and came out right above his knee. Was hauled off to the hospital and, according to him, they ran something like a cleaning rod through it a couple of times and then he was back at the match. The next week he passed the police physical exam so he was tough - if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, Steve RA said: l loaned a gun to a gentleman who had been bugging me to let him shoot it. Had about a pound and a half trigger pull and I told him several times to go to a safe area and try it. Didn't and on the draw he shot himself. Went in right below the end of the holster and came out right above his knee. Was hauled off to the hospital and, according to him, they ran something like a cleaning rod through it a couple of times and then he was back at the match. The next week he passed the police physical exam so he was tough - if nothing else. I don't know about you guys, but when I got my first light-triggered, thumb-saftied gun (2011) I dry-fired the crap out of it before taking it to the range. I know people may want to try my guns, but I generally don't do it if they're not familiar with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 3 hours ago, teros135 said: I don't know about you guys, but when I got my first light-triggered, thumb-saftied gun (2011) I dry-fired the crap out of it before taking it to the range. I know people may want to try my guns, but I generally don't do it if they're not familiar with them. The first time I handled a good 2011 with a really light trigger was when one of my buddies let me dry fire his. One of my first comments was “Well, that round would’ve gone into the dirt halfway to the target,” because I tried to prep the trigger the way I’m used to and accidentally rolled right through the entire pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 On 6/8/2018 at 11:23 PM, SoCalDep said: The "rules" are a far second place to safety. So is a stage plan, clearing the mind, relaxing, mentally and physically getting prepared to shoot, and anything else firearms related. PERIOD. I'm not saying we treat everyone like an idiot. What I'm saying is that as the people responsible for safety on a range, it is our absolute responsibility to make sure that range is as safe as possible while still allowing a fun match (nothing is completely safe). That means we need to be constantly thinking about what we can do better. One of those things we can do better is to understand the dynamics of human behavior and physiological training. If you don't expect everyone to show up a B or better shooter, then you better be prepared to deal with the realities that come with the lesser experienced. We need to keep in mind that it is "natural" to put the trigger finger on the trigger. I know it's a horrible inconvenience, but if our range commands started with "make ready and then safely holster with your finger on the frame", there might be a whole lot less DQs. Much, much more importantly, we'd be encouraging safe firearm manipulation. If an expert didn't or doesn't like it... then I'm more concerned about them than the new shooter. The rules are what make it work. If they aren't sufficient, a DQ is issued and the shooter has some extra time to think about what to do differently next time. Using improper range commands is a recipe for more confusion and problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixsixnine Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 On 6/8/2018 at 6:51 AM, IHAVEGAS said: If the world has moved on to cold coffee and participation trophies (and pcc) it is what it is I guess. lol'd at PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 23 hours ago, teros135 said: I know people may want to try my guns, but I generally don't do it if they're not familiar with them. This was stupid, I know many will be inclined to point out that it was stupid but it would be redundant at this point as I am aware that it was stupid. Guy showed up at a match & forgot his gun. I loaned him my back up gun, same model but better trigger. 2nd stage into the match he launched one over the berm. If he had shot himself or someone else would a lawyer be able to take my home & savings? Do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said: This was stupid, I know many will be inclined to point out that it was stupid but it would be redundant at this point as I am aware that it was stupid. Guy showed up at a match & forgot his gun. I loaned him my back up gun, same model but better trigger. 2nd stage into the match he launched one over the berm. If he had shot himself or someone else would a lawyer be able to take my home & savings? Do not know. I would say a good(POS)lawyer could make a case against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said: This was stupid, I know many will be inclined to point out that it was stupid but it would be redundant at this point as I am aware that it was stupid. Guy showed up at a match & forgot his gun. I loaned him my back up gun, same model but better trigger. 2nd stage into the match he launched one over the berm. If he had shot himself or someone else would a lawyer be able to take my home & savings? Do not know. I wouldn't call it stupid, just something you wouldn't want to do again. We learn... Edited June 11, 2018 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Sarge said: I would say a good(POS)lawyer could make a case against you. Well, he could try. Same make and model, you'd think he would know how to handle it. And launch over the berm is a DQ, isn't it, which is shooter responsibility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moloch38 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Reminds me of folks that reload with their finger on the trigger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now