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Guy shot himself during “make ready”.


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On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 4:30 AM, EEH said:

I know of one guy did the same thing with 1911. 45 acp..

 

what at gets me is the race to put gun in holster when finished shooting,, some guys think their still on the clock..

who can unload show clear the fastest.

totally agree

I always did the show clear/holster stuff slowly so the ro stays calm. just like getting pulled over in the car do everything slow.

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On 6/8/2018 at 9:23 PM, SoCalDep said:

... I know it's a horrible inconvenience, but if our range commands started with "make ready and then safely holster with your finger on the frame", there might be a whole lot less DQs.  Much, much more importantly, we'd be encouraging safe firearm manipulation.  If an expert didn't or doesn't like it... then I'm more concerned about them than the new shooter. 

 

Except, not every start in a stage starts with the gun in the holster. You have gun on a table, gun in a box, gun on a barrel, etc., etc.. Are you going to have different commands for different starts? "Make ready" covers all situations.  It is also simple to understand. The commands are the same worldwide in IPSC and are in English. It is the only English some of those people know. 

 

You want strict guidance? IDPA is ? way. ?

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  • 2 weeks later...

We had a shooter at a match that had a jam and started slapping the muzzle to loosen it, needless to say he went home shortly after that attempt. Luckily he did not shoot himself 

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On 6/9/2018 at 12:23 AM, SoCalDep said:

The "rules" are a far second place to safety.  So is a stage plan, clearing the mind, relaxing, mentally and physically getting prepared to shoot, and anything else firearms related.  PERIOD.

 

I'm not saying we treat everyone like an idiot.  What I'm saying is that as the people responsible for safety on a range, it is our absolute responsibility to make sure that range is as safe as possible while still allowing a fun match (nothing is completely safe).  That means we need to be constantly thinking about what we can do better. 

 

One of those things we can do better is to understand the dynamics of human behavior and physiological training.  If you don't expect everyone to show up a B or better shooter, then you better be prepared to deal with the realities that come with the lesser experienced.  We need to keep in mind that it is "natural" to put the trigger finger on the trigger.  I know it's a horrible inconvenience, but if our range commands started with "make ready and then safely holster with your finger on the frame", there might be a whole lot less DQs.  Much, much more importantly, we'd be encouraging safe firearm manipulation.  If an expert didn't or doesn't like it... then I'm more concerned about them than the new shooter. 

Actually, the C class or below shooters are the ones that are more careful of holstering and doing it slower.  the B class and above shooters are the ones more complacent and not paying attention to holstering.

When playing in our sport, you are expected to be safe.  I would not recommend a new shooter to play in our sport.  having finger outside the trigger guard should be second nature, not naturally on the trigger as you say.

So I disagree that anything more than "make ready" is necessary.  When I RO, I do watch the gun go into the holster and if I see finger in the trigger and/or the safety is off, I will remind the shooter if there is time...so far so good...I just saved somebody from a DQ this past weekend because he forgot to put his safety on prior to putting it in the holster...

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As an RO I try to limit the jaw jacking, however if I feel the need to say something (other than the official commands) I do it before the MR command.  Quite a few shooters have a process they need to go through prior to the buzzer, so I have the courtesy to allow everyone that same opportunity.

 

As for the competitor mentioned in the initial post, I'm hoping he/she is OK, has learned a valuable lesson and comes back to shoot more USPSA matches; ideally better informed, trained and prepared.

Edited by muncie21
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On 7/5/2018 at 7:47 AM, racerba said:

Actually, the C class or below shooters are the ones that are more careful of holstering and doing it slower.  the B class and above shooters are the ones more complacent and not paying attention to holstering.

 

Last year I was at a match. I had already shot the stage and was sitting at the back of the shade structure. An A class shooter was MR about 20 feet in front of me. Suddenly there was a bunch of commotion and people scattering in front of me. As I'm getting up I see the muzzle of a big fat .45 pointed directly at me laying on the ground. Yep, he missed his holster and dropped the weapon on the ground. A class shooter headed for DQ.

 

Also, I learned a lesson, don't plant your ass in a chair anywhere directly to the rear )or maybe 45 degrees) of the start box.

Edited by Eureka1911
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Surprised he didn’t get banned from the club, even if just temporarily lol. I’d require them to do the new shooter safety briefing for a few matches at least. As embarrassing as it is, I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that guy in my squad, even if I wasn’t the RO lol.

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I don't call myself an instructor, but as one guy at my agency said "Boss, we aren't much but we're all you've got."

I spent several hours over three days working with a family group and was gratified to see them get through their first match safely and effectively. 

 

I went to my first match at a different club and listened to the 10 minute "new shooter briefing" just to be sure they didn't have any local rules over and above the books.  They didn't and I had no trouble even with only 40 years experience but I wonder if the true new guys are really getting what they need. 

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I’m surprised nobody has mentioned what we do up in Canada.

 

To be able to shoot IPSC, IDPA or ICORE we need to pass the Black Badge course. 3 whole days of shooting, and rule discussion (plus multiple choice exam) and passing exercises such as shooting around barricades, lying down, reloads, how to LAMR, el presidente etc. All under the watchful eye of the instructor.  He doesn’t think you’re safe, no black badge -no fun.

 

2 DQ’s in 1 year -re do the bb course.

 

Also you have to complete one match (with no dq) to pass, you have 1 year after finishing the class to do a match.

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56 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned what we do up in Canada.

 

To be able to shoot IPSC, IDPA or ICORE we need to pass the Black Badge course. 3 whole days of shooting, and rule discussion (plus multiple choice exam) and passing exercises such as shooting around barricades, lying down, reloads, how to LAMR, el presidente etc. All under the watchful eye of the instructor.  He doesn’t think you’re safe, no black badge -no fun.

 

2 DQ’s in 1 year -re do the bb course.

 

Also you have to complete one match (with no dq) to pass, you have 1 year after finishing the class to do a match.

No thanks. Was the guy who died last year in Canada? I don't remember. 

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55 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned what we do up in Canada.

 

To be able to shoot IPSC, IDPA or ICORE we need to pass the Black Badge course. 3 whole days of shooting, and rule discussion (plus multiple choice exam) and passing exercises such as shooting around barricades, lying down, reloads, how to LAMR, el presidente etc. All under the watchful eye of the instructor.  He doesn’t think you’re safe, no black badge -no fun.

 

2 DQ’s in 1 year -re do the bb course.

 

Also you have to complete one match (with no dq) to pass, you have 1 year after finishing the class to do a match.

3 days seems a bit much. You should be able to show up as a new shooter and if you understand the basic safety aspects and rules be allowed to shoot. 

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A doctor in BC.  Gun hit a port and got knocked out of his hand and he went to grab it but it flipped 180.

 

This is Canada where we are getting the blame for gang shootings, serious talk about banning handguns and “assault weapons “ from our progressive pm.

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36 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

A doctor in BC.  Gun hit a port and got knocked out of his hand and he went to grab it but it flipped 180.

 

This is Canada where we are getting the blame for gang shootings, serious talk about banning handguns and “assault weapons “ from our progressive pm.

So the three day class really is moot. Accidents happen and dummies will draw and shoot themselves in the foot trying to hurry. Unless Canada IPSC makes it illegal to push the envelope a 3 day class is pointless.

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7 hours ago, Sarge said:

So the three day class really is moot. Accidents happen and dummies will draw and shoot themselves in the foot trying to hurry. Unless Canada IPSC makes it illegal to push the envelope a 3 day class is pointless.

 

Accidents can happen - but a course with tests and hands on practice is pretty good at pounding in where you should point your gun and what you should do with your trigger finger.

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We run a similar safety course in Australia. You can’t just rock up at a range & shoot from a holster here.

As a competitor that gives me some comfort the the newbie at the line has been taught the rules and assessed as “competent”. It doesn’t mean that accidents can’t or won’t happen but it hopefully it decreases the odds.

It also increases the minimum standard to expect from competitors so you don’t have to worry about things like uprange starts, moving uprange etc.

This was discussed on PSAD recently. The general consensus was it was a good idea but perhaps 3 days was too much.


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The indoor range we shoot at has a required safety meeting for any new shooters before shooting their USPSA match.  Most clubs in the area ask if there are any new shooters at the start of the match, and do something similar, along with squading them with experienced shooters willing to help.  I don't think this guy was a brand new shooter, but brand new to 1911/2011.  He didn't put the safety on when he holstered, although that obviously didn't make the gun go off by itself.  I safety class would be a great idea, although I'm not sure about a 3 day pass or fail. 

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I don't think this guy was a brand new shooter, but brand new to 1911/2011.  He didn't put the safety on when he holstered, although that obviously didn't make the gun go off by itself.

 

@jripperobviously you were present so you know if this was a genuine safety issue or not, but in either case that says to me that this guy didn't read the USPSA rule book before showing up to compete. There are people who carry 1911s cocked and safety off; the rule book makes it quite clear what the "safe" conditions are for each type of handgun/division and when it has to be in that condition.

 

I think it's unreasonable to expect every new competitor to memorize the rule book start to finish, but it's disappointing to see new shooters who have not read it at all, especially the basic safety requirements. It's understandable if you don't know how to score a shot that breaks a perforation, if your magazines are under 140mm, or whether standing on the fault line is in or out; that stuff is learned as you go. But every competitor should know the general safety rules as well as those specific for the division they are planning to shoot (for example, a competitor shooting a Shadow 2 in Production has a different "safe condition" than a competitor shooting the same in Limited). I'm fairly new to the sport but I have shot alongside at least one other new shooter in every match I have shot so far; it's very clear when they have read the rule book (slow draw, extra care in pointing down range when reloading, etc.) versus when they haven't (didn't know there were different divisions, one-handed/nearly blind shooting through a port at an angled target, transitioning between positions with the muzzle up like a TV detective [didn't break the 180 doing so, but came very close]). 

 

New shooters are required to do a safety check before their first match in my region, which mostly consists of a rule/safety overview and a verification that you can safely draw/holster, but I don't recall ever being asked if I had read the rule book, which IMO should be a do-not-pass go requirement. Reading the book is not going to completely eliminate mistakes, but it's hard to believe that anyone who has NOT read the book takes safety seriously. 

 

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it's hard to believe that anyone who has NOT read the book takes safety seriously. 
 

I have a friend who started shooting at the same time as me, so we usually go to matches together. Then, he’s always asking me questions about everything and it pisses me off because he still hasn’t read the rule book. I always tell him to go read it himself instead of asking me all these questions he should know by now.

The idiot should’ve been DQ’d last match because he unholstered his gun for a table start before the RO gave him the “make ready”. His excuse: “oh that’s a rule? I didn’t know that”. Luckily, the RO that was in our squad let it slip for him.
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