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At a match on Saturday a experience shooter had an accidental discharge while reloading his shotgun. The shot hit the berm on the other side of the stage and it started a big controversy if the person should have been DQed up or not. Someone got out the 3GN rule book and it was as clear as mud. One paragraph states a accidental discharge is a disqualification but another paragraph has stipulations one where the shot has to hit. They decided to let the person finish the day but I was wondering if anyone has a definitive explanation when/if someone should be DQed. 

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If he was loading the gun it would be really unusual for that to be an "aimed" or intended shot.  I'd vote DQ.

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2.0 DISQUALIFICATIONS
A Disqualification (DQ) will result in complete disqualification from the event and the competitor will not be allowed to continue.
2.2.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm after the "Make Ready" command and before
the "Range is Clear" command.

 

seems pretty clear that letting one go while reloading is a dq.

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8 hours ago, davsco said:

2.0 DISQUALIFICATIONS
A Disqualification (DQ) will result in complete disqualification from the event and the competitor will not be allowed to continue.
2.2.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm after the "Make Ready" command and before
the "Range is Clear" command.

 

seems pretty clear that letting one go while reloading is a dq.

I thought it was clear too that it would be a DQ. But it was pointed out :

Penalties

6.6.4 A

Definition: An unintentional shot that travels over a backstop, a berm or impacts anything deemed by the event organizers to be unsafe.

 

That's where it starts to get muddy. Some people claimed it hit the berm so it was still safe. I'm not sure why the definition was worded the way it was.

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two different animals.  there is specific a.d. during reload, irrespective of where the round goes.  zero mud from my perspective.

 

was he reloading, did he let a round go while doing so, then 2.2.3 applies for a dq.

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10 hours ago, blacklab said:

I thought it was clear too that it would be a DQ. But it was pointed out :

Penalties

6.6.4 A

Definition: An unintentional shot that travels over a backstop, a berm or impacts anything deemed by the event organizers to be unsafe.

 

That's where it starts to get muddy. Some people claimed it hit the berm so it was still safe. I'm not sure why the definition was worded the way it was.

Loading your shotgun is not an unintentional shot regardless of where it hits.

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What muddies the water is when the shot occurred.  Did the shotgun fire while he was actually inserting rounds into the gun, or did it fire while he was returning it to his shoulder?  If it was while he was inserting rounds,  DQ.  If it fired while he was returning it to his shoulder, then where the shot landed determines whether it was a DQ.

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Act of reloading is not over until it returns to shoulder. Dq still part of reloading. 

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1 hour ago, mike4045 said:

Act of reloading is not over until it returns to shoulder. Dq still part of reloading. 

Can you cite a rule that says the stock must be on shoulder to fire? 

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23 hours ago, Ming the Merciless said:

What muddies the water is when the shot occurred.  Did the shotgun fire while he was actually inserting rounds into the gun, or did it fire while he was returning it to his shoulder?  If it was while he was inserting rounds,  DQ.  If it fired while he was returning it to his shoulder, then where the shot landed determines whether it was a DQ.

He was still reloading. If I seen it right he had just slid a shell out of the match saver when it went off. The stock was around waste level. I thought it should have been a DQ but they decided since it hit the berm he was still good to go. The only thing that saved his day was the definition in 6.6.4 A. 

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Hitting the berm seems to be lucky but I can see where 6.6.4 A confuses things and may give room for interpretation. There was no accidental discharge. This is a negligent discharge. 

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7 hours ago, Moloch38 said:

Hitting the berm seems to be lucky but I can see where 6.6.4 A confuses things and may give room for interpretation. There was no accidental discharge. This is a negligent discharge. 

I'm still confused. What's the difference between a AD and an ND?

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21 minutes ago, blacklab said:

I'm still confused. What's the difference between a AD and an ND?

AD = accidental discharge

ND = negligent discharge

 

Many people prefer the term ND because it puts the burden on the shooter for screwing up rather than calling it an “accident”. 

 

I agree, except that some rulebooks (USPSA for example) refer to it as an “accidental discharge”, so I use the term from the rules when applicable. 

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One of the biggest problems with 3 gun. The lack of rules or not enforcing  the ones they do have.

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On 6/11/2018 at 9:21 PM, blacklab said:

I'm still confused. What's the difference between a AD and an ND?

 

I was always taught, and use the following to differentiate the two:

 

AD is when a mechanical issue with the firearm causes an unintentional shot (ie, not the shooter's fault)

 

ND is when the shooter fires an unintentional shot (shooter's fault)

 

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On 6/8/2018 at 8:46 PM, blacklab said:

He was still reloading. If I seen it right he had just slid a shell out of the match saver when it went off. The stock was around waste level. I thought it should have been a DQ but they decided since it hit the berm he was still good to go. The only thing that saved his day was the definition in 6.6.4 A. 

 

Wait, something doesn't make sense here, if he was loading from the 'match saver' shell holder, meaning gun is already empty/lockback, how could it go off?  Or are you saying as he closes the bolt AFTER the 'match saver' round, it went off?  Sometime is it hard to see what the RO sees, so I would give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter (if I was the RO), or the RO if I was a spectator/squad mate.  Round/shot hitting the berm near the target is close enough, no need to ding people.

 

I had similar experience at the recent match, as RO, I could see the shooter just finished inserting a fresh mag, wasn't on the target yet but 'boom', finger on the trigger while reloading.  I let it go but had a 'sidebar' with the shooter after, don't think he will forget it because it was as close to going home on his 1st stage of the match as he could get.

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:57 AM, PacMan said:

Wait, something doesn't make sense here, if he was loading from the 'match saver' shell holder, meaning gun is already empty/lockback, how could it go off?  Or are you saying as he closes the bolt AFTER the 'match saver' round, it went off

This happened awhile ago but if I remember right he slid the shell from the match saver, closed the action and was going to start to turn the gun over to finish the reload when it went off. It happened rather quick so I don't think anyone could say for sure if the trigger was pulled or if it was set off by the bolt closing.

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Here in the heat of summer in Houston we have seen shotgun rounds go off this way. Loading on an empty chamber and dropping the bolt. I know that their finger was no where near the trigger.

 

gerritm

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13 hours ago, blacklab said:

This happened awhile ago but if I remember right he slid the shell from the match saver, closed the action and was going to start to turn the gun over to finish the reload

Hummmm? I only use the match saver, if I only need that 1 last shot to finish the stage. Just saying.

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:42 AM, usmc1974 said:

Hummmm? I only use the match saver, if I only need that 1 last shot to finish the stage. Just saying.

In a perfect world that's the way it should be. But everyone looses track every now and then.B)

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9 hours ago, blacklab said:

In a perfect world that's the way it should be. But everyone looses track every now and then.B)

I am the king of "loosing track " lol

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What the unintended shot is if your coming into the target and break the shot early.  This is not the case 

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This would be a DQ if I was the RO . The shooter was loading the shot gun that is an AD . 

 

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DQ that fact he hit the berm shouldnt matter, that part was probably just lucky 

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