Reshoot on this classifier?

[rowdyb]

So this happened today, not to me but I saw it. WSB says "sitting fully in chair" as part of the start position for 09-07. Shooter stands up and this happens. Reshoot or not?

 

Is it reasonable to expect the chair not to come with you? Or is it more reasonable to expect the duty is on you to be clear of it (the chair) than it is the chair's duty to passively not come with you.

[wgj3]

In general, the chair is the same for everybody, so it's on the shooter to deal with it.

As the shooter, I would/could make an argument for REF or something like that.

[wtturn]

REF, reshoot - if I'm the RO.

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[stick]

Reshoot for range interference.  It reasonable to expect the chair to remain fixed to the ground.  

Personally, I never sit all the way back in the chair.  it allows me to stand up faster.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've shot at almost twenty different clubs, and if anything like that

occurred, it would have been a re-shoot.     

[rowdyb]

On the reshoot topic, but not this exact one, at the match I was at Saturday I stopped a shooter who shot a barrel that then moved a considerable amount, changing a target presentation. A few questioned me but I stood firm. Counting the barrel shot as a "mistake" versus a REF. I said it's a REF. He had to reshoot anyways as I stopped him hahaha.

 

As for the one I took a picture of today, Sunday., I don't know if he was offered a reshoot but he didn't do one.

 

Edit: note to self, do not take all my mags to a classifier of only 6 shots and a chair start like this. I bet without a mag in a pouch the chair would have dislodged easier or sooner.

Edited June 4, 2018 by rowdyb

[Flatland Shooter]

Reshoot due to range equipment failure.   

 

The chair should have remained on the ground due to gravity.

 

After all, its a law.

[motosapiens]

I'll go the other way and say no reshoot, but I actually pay attention to those chairs and make sure my mags don't hook one. The chair did exactly what it is supposed to do. The shooter failed to think about what he was doing.

[rowdyb]

Does the fully seated part of the start description encourage this to happen?

 

I sure know I made sure I didn't do it!

[davsco]

yeah when it says fully seated against back of chair, i've had my belt catch under the backrest of the chair.

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, davsco said:

yeah when it says fully seated against back of chair, i've had my belt catch under the backrest of the chair.

 

that's because you were inattentive. i roll my hips forward so i my back can make contact with the chair while keeping my magazines pointed in a direction that they won't hook the chair.

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Does the fully seated part of the start description encourage this to happen?

 

I sure know I made sure I didn't do it!

exactly. you were paying attention. imho, no different than avoiding hooking your gun on a wall or port. bummer if it happens, but it's not the equipment's fault. 

[wtturn]

exactly. you were paying attention. imho, no different than avoiding hooking your gun on a wall or port. bummer if it happens, but it's not the equipment's fault. 

The more apt analogy is hooking your gun on the wall's snow net and tearing a great big chunk of it off and it staying on your gun the entire stage.

I'm not saying there isn't a factor of contributory negligence on the shooter's part, but you have a reasonable expectation to not have range equipment come along for the ride.

If the chair is staked down and you snag it while standing or have a mag ripped out or pull your belt off, that's on the shooter.

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[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, wtturn said:

The more apt analogy is hooking your gun on the wall's snow net and tearing a great big chunk of it off and it staying on your gun the entire stage.

I'm not saying there isn't a factor of contributory negligence on the shooter's part, but you have a reasonable expectation to not have range equipment come along for the ride.

If the chair is staked down and you snag it while standing or have a mag ripped out or pull your belt off, that's on the shooter.
 

 

meh. we can agree to disagree. I wouldn't cry if I were overruled by the RM. Personally, I expect a chair to grab my magazines if I don't pay attention to it. I see no reason to give mulligans to people who are less well prepared.

 

Now if the chair collapses, that's a different thing. That's something I don't expect a chair to do. But I expect every metal chair to come with me if take no steps to ensure that it doesn't.

[amokscience]

I've never seen a reshoot for that. We always remind everyone to watch out and then laugh a lot when it happens. I've never seen a chair that could be staked down either. 

[rowdyb]

I've seen quite a few chairs staked down.

[wtturn]

I've seen quite a few chairs staked down.

We always stake ours down.

A couple nails and zip ties usually solves this problem.

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[amokscience]

The way I see it if the chair was staked and you pulled it loose (or otherwise broke it) then REF.  If it's like this then it's the shooter's error.

 

 

[JAFO]

I'd say no reshoot.  The chair presented the same challenge for all competitors.  It's up to the shooter to make sure he/she doesn't get hung up on it.  Whether the chair comes up off the ground or is staked down, the shooter still got themselves hung up on it.  Seems the same as if you hook a mag on a door frame, a PCC getting a stock or mag snagged on a wall, or sights snagging on a port.

 

I have seen this a couple of times and done it myself once when I tried to sink down so my mags were below the chair back.  Since then, I sit high enough that I can feel my mags between me and the chair back (I run them all vertical).  Never had a problem since.  Most shooters are conscious enough to make sure it doesn't happen, and new shooters are usually cautioned by more seasoned ones. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by JAFO

[Hammer002]

This is not a reshoot. Seen it happen.  Lesson learned at someone else’s expense.

[jhgtyre]

Definitely an example of why those types of chairs are not the best for use on stages but not a reshoot.  The best chairs are plain wood with a solid back and no arms.  This eliminates anyone getting tangled up in the chair which could lead to an unsafe situation.

[HoMiE]

Why would you want to reshoot a classifier? We all know that never turns out well. 

[Hammer002]

19 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

Definitely an example of why those types of chairs are not the best for use on stages but not a reshoot.  The best chairs are plain wood with a solid back and no arms.  This eliminates anyone getting tangled up in the chair which could lead to an unsafe situation.

I’ve suspected many times the use of this type of chair when I know for sure there were other options was intentional.  Kinda like 180 traps.  Felt fortunate to learn this one early in my shooting experience.

[PatJones]

If I'm the RO, it's a reshoot. That's how it was called when it happened to me on a short course.

On a field stage it's a safety concern. On a classifier it's also an equity concern. Are all the chairs used at all the clubs the same? In a classifier it's definitely not the same for everyone, but a minimum level of competitive equity should be the goal.

[motosapiens]

Heck, we should have a reshoot *every* time someone makes a mistake or is inattentive. Trip over the fault line? reshoot. Bang your gun on a port and cause a malfunction? reshoot....