How should this penalty have applied?

[forkliftHIFI]

Course description required an object be placed in a box near the ‘end’ of the stage before the final target is engaged.  Someone blew through the course ignoring the object.  

[PatJones]

10.2.2
"A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance)."

If there were two shots on the last target, two procedurals. There were no requirements for the other targets were there?

[forkliftHIFI]

Thanks

 

Skipping the item may have been wise.  I’ll keep an eye on such wording in the future but it may have said last shot fired not target engaged, making it one procedural which they were given.  Accuracy and speed were obviously much easier without having to deal with it.

[JAFO]

I think you have to consider what the object was.  If it was of a size and/or shape such that it would have affected your ability to shoot with both hands, then I would consider completely ignoring it as gaining significant advantage and assess procedurals per shot.  A stuffed animal or doll vs a 20 lb ammo can, for example.

Edited May 29, 2018 by JAFO

[Poppa Bear]

This is also one of those areas where it pays to write it into the WSB as either a one shot penalty or a per shot penalty so that the competitors can make an informed decision.

 

I like courses that are last target with enough difference between moving the object and not moving the object to  balance out the penalties.  Now the shooters have to play to their strengths.  

 

[forkliftHIFI]

3 hours ago, JAFO said:

I think you have to consider what the object was.  If it was of a size and/or shape such that it would have affected your ability to shoot with both hands, then I would consider completely ignoring it as gaining significant advantage and assess procedurals per shot.  A stuffed animal or doll vs a 20 lb ammo can, for example.

A big cone.  You’re either shooting one handed for over half the shots in the stage or toss it and hope to get lucky (unlikely) or run backwards to get it at the end.  The RO and shooter were related and some of us felt like it might have gone differently for one of us to do the same thing.

[open17]

Guessing a bit at the WSB--but if it said "object must be put in whatever prior to engaging last target" then there was no obligation to carry it while shooting, therefore

no penalty for NOT carrying it.   Per shot advantage on the procedural?  Nope.  For what?   The shooter failed to comply with the procedure in  the WSB.   One Procedural.  

 

Design the stage so the prop is required to activate a couple of targets---that will at least get it down to the far end.

[sfinney]

15 minutes ago, open17 said:

Guessing a bit at the WSB--but if it said "object must be put in whatever prior to engaging last target" then there was no obligation to carry it while shooting, therefore

no penalty for NOT carrying it.   Per shot advantage on the procedural?  Nope.  For what?   The shooter failed to comply with the procedure in  the WSB.   One Procedural.  

 

Design the stage so the prop is required to activate a couple of targets---that will at least get it down to the far end.

Agreed. 1 Procedural... if it did not specify carrying it. 

[waktasz]

1 PE for the shooter

 

1 PE for the stage designer

 

1 smack in the head for everyone else at the match who didn't do it the same way as the shooter you described. It's certainly worth eating the penalty to avoid having to shoot half a stage with one hand. 

[CHA-LEE]

And this is why the Written Stage Briefing needs to be SOLID in explaining the penalties for not handling the object as defined.

[EEH]

It’s the same as operating a swinger after you shoot it.. one penalty..

you can believe when I go to the trouble set a swinger,, you will activate it before you shoot it.

write it in stage brief no more problems.

[PatJones]

It’s the same as operating a swinger after you shoot it.. one penalty..
you can believe when I go to the trouble set a swinger,, you will activate it before you shoot it.
write it in stage brief no more problems.

That's an exception for Level 1 matches, I generally don't use those when setting up a course. The exceptions are for new clubs that don't have enough props.

If you must do it, it's a 1 per shot penalty. Don't fire any extra make up shots.

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

2.1.8.5.1Level One matches are encouraged but not required to comply with this requirement. The Written Stage Briefing (WSB) may prohibit competitors from engaging certain targets which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated (see Rule 9.9.4)

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

[Dpolk]

That would be counted as a procedural during course of fire. It would be just like skipping a mandatory reload 

[Sarge]

28 minutes ago, Dpolk said:

That would be counted as a procedural during course of fire. It would be just like skipping a mandatory reload 

Huh? Skipping a mandatory reload is one procedural per shot fired.

[Dpolk]

That would be correct if it was mandated that it be done before engaging the last target. So each round on that target would be considered procedural would it not? 

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, Dpolk said:

That would be correct if it was mandated that it be done before engaging the last target. So each round on that target would be considered procedural would it not? 

I think this scenario is one procedural only.

[Dpolk]

Just now, Sarge said:

I think this scenario is one procedural only.

Wasn’t sure since it was designated be done prior to target engagement.

[waktasz]

On 6/21/2018 at 10:55 PM, Dpolk said:

Wasn’t sure since it was designated be done prior to target engagement.

 

Engaging means shooting at a target at least once. 

If the WSB says to put the thingy in the thingy before you engage the last target, there can only be one penalty.