Different start positions by Division, is that legal?

[RaylanGivens]

7 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

What I  can't figure out is why conversations like this even happen .

 

18 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

And that's the usual fallback position when you run out of real data.  

 

You asked why...

[RadarTech]

There was a discussion and I can’t remember it if was Troy or another RMI...
But it was mentioned that loaded or unloaded should be the same for all divisions. Facing direction is rule directed for PCC... where as start facing up dang loaded and holstered is ok for pistol...

Also for pistol side... I would recommend all the same.. consider a production shooter with a problem. He/she goes to open... or single stack or limited.. so keeping all pistol the same would be an equitable idea...

Regardless.. IMHO singling out a division for different start positions falls under the Troy rule -don’t be a dick...

And the golden rule— just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

[ATLDave]

PCC ALMOST ALWAYS has a different start position than handguns.  By rule, handgun competitors cannot start with the gun in hand, which is typical for PCC.  By rule, PCC shooters cannot start with their gun in possession and facing uprange.  PCC is already inherently different in its start positions.

 

I think putting the PCC on a table or barrel to allow the re-introduction of an uprange/turning start is a very good idea and seems to square entirely with both the spirit and letter of the rules.  

[gerritm]

As a PCC & open pistol shooter I would have no problem with a table start facing uprange, but I would suggest doing the same for the pistol start also for that stage. If you are doing it to the PCC shooters only to slow them down or mess with them then I would have a problem with it.

 

gerritm

[teros135]

2 hours ago, ATLDave said:

PCC ALMOST ALWAYS has a different start position than handguns.  By rule, handgun competitors cannot start with the gun in hand, which is typical for PCC.  By rule, PCC shooters cannot start with their gun in possession and facing uprange.  PCC is already inherently different in its start positions.

 

I think putting the PCC on a table or barrel to allow the re-introduction of an uprange/turning start is a very good idea and seems to square entirely with both the spirit and letter of the rules.  

 

Good points,  although we seem to be talking about two separate issues here.   One is start POSITION (e.g., hands at sides, gun holstered or PCC at low ready).  The other is start LOCATION (where you're standing when you take the start position).  

 

It makes sense that handgun and PCC would have different start positions (within reason), considering their different configurations.  The rules already speak to this. 

 

OTOH, there's no rule, or tradition, that allows different Divisions to have different start locations in the COF.  Everybody shoots the same COF.  That seems pretty straightforward.

[ATLDave]

32 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Good points,  although we seem to be talking about two separate issues here.   One is start POSITION (e.g., hands at sides, gun holstered or PCC at low ready).  The other is start LOCATION (where you're standing when you take the start position).  .

 

 

Having PCC shooters put their gun on a table, then stand exactly where handgun shooters stand, facing exactly the same direction is keeping the same location.  Now, allowing PCC shooters to start facing downrange while everyone else has to deal with a turn?  THAT's different locations for different divisions - although people think that's "normal."

 

32 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 Everybody shoots the same COF.  That seems pretty straightforward.

 

Nope.  PCC is special.  Everyone else occasionally has to shoot with one hand on the gun; when that is required, it's usually the "guts" of the stage, the main challenge.  But PCC is special.  You cannot make them shoot one-handed.  When everyone else is shooting strong-hand-only, they're shooting freestyle.  When everyone else is struggling to control their gun with their weak hand, they are shooting with 3 points of contact.  

 

All the notions that "everyone does the same thing" got broken when PCC was introduced.  That doesn't mean it was bad or wrong, but that core concept is inherently out the window for PCC.  

Edited December 21, 2018 by ATLDave

[Bosshoss]

1 hour ago, teros135 said:

 

 

OTOH, there's no rule, or tradition, that allows different Divisions to have different start locations in the COF.  Everybody shoots the same COF.  That seems pretty straightforward.

There is no rule that says you can't have different start positions either. I know you have been around long enough to know that if the rules don't say you can't then you can.

The COF is the same no matter where you start as long as targets or fault lines are not moved. Just have to have a different game plan. Kind of like a SS shooter will have a different plan than a open shooter for the same course of fire.

 

We have a lot of stages locally that have hands on marks and PCC muzzle on mark starts. The handgun shooter can get the length of their arm towards the first shooting position. A PCC shooter can hold the gun outstretched in one hand and with a lean be several feet closer to first shooting position. How is that not a different starting position? I'm not complaining about that because I'm not shooting against them just trying to make a point.

 

 

[Darqusoull13]

On 5/25/2018 at 7:21 PM, motosapiens said:

I'm pretty sure I've seen it, and imho it's a much better option than having handgunners turn and draw while pcc-ers just stand there and draw. My only suggestion is to just make it equitable. If you start doing crazy stuff to disadvantage the pcc shooters (not saying that you are doing that or would do that), then it wouldn't really be sporting. but a turn and draw for both with handgun in holster and pcc on table seems pretty reasonable to me as a CRO and sometimes MD.

Can revolver shooters use 140mm mags to make revolver more equitable as well? Asking since in your match divisions compete equitably against one another. 

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Can revolver shooters use 140mm mags to make revolver more equitable as well? Asking since in your match divisions compete equitably against one another. 

 

Sure. that's a very reasonable suggestion.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about, btw.

[motosapiens]

On 12/21/2018 at 10:19 AM, ATLDave said:

  But PCC is special.  You cannot make them shoot one-handed.  When everyone else is shooting strong-hand-only, they're shooting freestyle.  When everyone else is struggling to control their gun with their weak hand, they are shooting with 3 points of contact.  

 

you can't tell them to shoot 1-handed, but you can make it pretty dumb for them to NOT shoot one handed. i.e.  'ammo can must be carried in weak hand for all shots from forward shooting area'. A few knuckleheads will try to hold the ammo can in weak hand and keep the weak hand on the gun, but the good rifle shooters will generally just shoot strong-hand-only, and not die from it.

[egd5]

I have had an idea about this for a while and this thread seems the perfect opportunity to ask.

A perfectly fine starting position for pistol is loaded in holster (safety on where applicable) and, since it's in a holster it would be pointed vertically-down. On an uprange start one cannot begin drawing until you have turned and gotten past the 180 mark or it will be a DQ.

 

PCC shooters are allowed to bring their gun uncased but flagged to the starting position carried in a vertical manner, usually pointed up from what I've seen.

 

Could we not have the PCC shooter, after load and make ready facing down range,  with safety on, hold gun vertically up and turn and face uprange for the start. Weak hand could even be naturally at side if cof so described. If the shooter began dropping the gun from vertical before getting past the 180 he would be DQd same as a pistol shooter would.

 

To me, this would be a safe and effective way to even out the difficulty of uprange starts.

 

 

[PatJones]

All of this only matters to people who look at their place in the combined overall results.

[ATLDave]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

you can't tell them to shoot 1-handed, but you can make it pretty dumb for them to NOT shoot one handed. i.e.  'ammo can must be carried in weak hand for all shots from forward shooting area'. A few knuckleheads will try to hold the ammo can in weak hand and keep the weak hand on the gun, but the good rifle shooters will generally just shoot strong-hand-only, and not die from it.

I understand that.  My point is that, by rule, they are already treated differently in things like start positions and SHO/WHO procedures.  And that's all well and good, but when someone whines about a slightly different PCC start position being unfair or designed to "haze" PCC or starts chanting "PCC is not a crime," it's pretty ridiculous.  They're special.  They're not treated the same as the other divisions anyway.  Most of the differences make the match easier for them.  Doing something that is compliant with the language of the rules to return some of the challenge that is otherwise lost is not just OK match design - it is better match design.  

[egd5]

Something just occurred to me. Pat Jones is right, this really all comes from the pcc shooters (and I am one) being lumped into the combined results. so why not keep them/us separate?

I THINK it could be done within existing practiscore systems.

 

When the match is created in PS you would actually create two matches, one pistol-one pcc. Shooters then register in which one they prefer.

 

On match day pcc shooters would all be squadded together with their scoring pad synced to the pcc shoot. If the numbers were such that you needed to mix a squad that squad would have two pads with it. At the end of the shoot the pads would be synced to their respective matches and posted to PS.

 

I don't think it would require any extra pads to be bought by the club since clubs usually have one or two extras anyhow. And you still have the same number of entries as if they were all mixed together, you're just separating them and assigning a pad to them. Maybe a few clubs might need one extra to be bought if they are running on a bare minimum already.

 

Pcc shooters are always saying we are not shooting against the pistol shooters anyway, so let's make it a definite distinction.

[OPENB]

You’re overthinking it. The divisions already compete separately. The only place HOA exists is that practiscore screen, and some people like to see how they compare against other divisions, but it really is meaningless. 

As far as different start position go, I couldn’t care less, no matter what the motivation is to do it. 

[egd5]

You and I may know that but all the whiners that see a pcc ahead of them and think we have some kind of advantage over them don't.

BTW, what is HOA?

[Gary Stevens]

HOA=Ancient History

[teros135]

30 minutes ago, egd5 said:

You and I may know that but all the whiners that see a pcc ahead of them and think we have some kind of advantage over them don't.

BTW, what is HOA?

 

Whiners?  You special? 

[egd5]

No, but I'm not complaining about those terrible pcc shooters who bring a rifle to a pistol shoot.

I shoot both, but since I suck with a pistol I like pcc better. I'm just trying to come up with ideas so we can all shoot together in peace.

[L3324temp]

BTW, what is HOA?

Probably = high over all


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[motosapiens]

50 minutes ago, egd5 said:

 

I shoot both, but since I suck with a pistol I like pcc better.

 

this is the only reason anyone shoots pcc. 

[RangerTrace]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:19 AM, ATLDave said:

 

 

Having PCC shooters put their gun on a table, then stand exactly where handgun shooters stand, facing exactly the same direction is keeping the same location.  Now, allowing PCC shooters to start facing downrange while everyone else has to deal with a turn?  THAT's different locations for different divisions - although people think that's "normal."

 

 

Nope.  PCC is special.  Everyone else occasionally has to shoot with one hand on the gun; when that is required, it's usually the "guts" of the stage, the main challenge.  But PCC is special.  You cannot make them shoot one-handed.  When everyone else is shooting strong-hand-only, they're shooting freestyle.  When everyone else is struggling to control their gun with their weak hand, they are shooting with 3 points of contact.  

 

All the notions that "everyone does the same thing" got broken when PCC was introduced.  That doesn't mean it was bad or wrong, but that core concept is inherently out the window for PCC.  

Very true, but I've not seen a PCC shooter yet handle tight shots around a wall or port as well as average pistol shooters, so they have their challenges as well.  Not to mention if the COF calls for a mag change.  Pistol shooters destroy PCC shooters on mag changes.  Tit for tat.  PCC is here to stay.  

[MemphisMechanic]

54 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

this is the only reason anyone shoots pcc. 

 

We have a local (he’s on here, actually) who was a pretty darned good pistol shooter. Fast forward a motorcycle crash, and twicein his life waking up to hear doctors saying “you will never walk again...”

 

...and his dominant hand’s fingertips lack the sensation/dexterity they used to have. Both hands are quite a bit weaker than normal for his age as well.

 

PCC now has him back at the range helping run our matches every single weekend, and he’s genuinely competitive in the A-ish skill range in PCC for USPSA. And much better than that in steel challenge.

 

For how many older shooters it’s brough back to the sport in my area - men who spent years ROing and giving to USPSA - I personally don’t hate PCC at all.

 

Us younger dorks who mess around with one when we should be shooting handguns? That’s a different matter.   

 

 

[MrT_shootsAcz]

On 12/21/2018 at 8:50 AM, gerritm said:

As a PCC & open pistol shooter I would have no problem with a table start facing uprange, but I would suggest doing the same for the pistol start also for that stage. If you are doing it to the PCC shooters only to slow them down or mess with them then I would have a problem with it.

 

gerritm

This!  This is all that needs to be done for the post that started this thread.

 

The rest is rules dialogue about start position.  There are plenty of great posts by folks more seasoned than me so they can continue to debate that.  

[rishii]

This reminds me of when red dots first appeared on compguns, stage designers did stuff to mess with them, think a 2-3’ long port that’s 2” high, iron sights no problem, red dot turn the  gun sideways, hard cover painted red etc

after awhile the silliness went away and thing got back to normal

now I see hurt feeling because a guy a shooting a rifle is beating  pistol  shooters in a  pistol match

the bottom line is he didn’t, the HOA is not an official score and hasn’t been for a couple of decades 

pcc competes against other pcc shooters, the open shooter didn't  lose to the pcc because they’re not competing against each other, the same way the production shooter didn't  lose to the open shooter

and if it still bothered you, then it should be motivation to up your game

i mainly shoot open because I enjoy it, I shoot pcc because it’s fun