Different start positions by Division, is that legal?

[JohnStewart]

I'm designing a stage for use this Sunday where I would like all shooters to start facing up range with wrists above shoulders.  I'm considering having handguns loaded & holstered and PCC rifles loaded, safety on and on a table behind them (with muzzle downrange of course).  It's common practice for PCC shooters to have a different start position because of their rifles and to ensure their muzzles are always downrange - but I can't say I've seen another stage where 1 group was starting on a table and the other was starting holstered. 

 

Is anyone aware of any rule which would make this illegal?  If so, which rule(s)?

[ChuckS]

What do you mean by "behind them"?

 

ETA: Got it. You have them with their back to the table that is up range of the start position. I see no reason why that would be illegal.

Edited May 26, 2018 by ChuckS

[davsco]

normally pcc starts in hands and handgun is holstered, so there is precedence for doing it differently.  so pcc on table and handgun holstered is same concept with starting differently.

[motosapiens]

I'm pretty sure I've seen it, and imho it's a much better option than having handgunners turn and draw while pcc-ers just stand there and draw. My only suggestion is to just make it equitable. If you start doing crazy stuff to disadvantage the pcc shooters (not saying that you are doing that or would do that), then it wouldn't really be sporting. but a turn and draw for both with handgun in holster and pcc on table seems pretty reasonable to me as a CRO and sometimes MD.

[Bosshoss]

Why wouldn't it be "sporting"? 

PCC is only shooting against other PPC's. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Bosshoss

[StuckinMS]

Go for it!

[Brooke]

I think it would be great if you could have a pistol start position and a PCC start position in an adjacent state.

[Steve RA]

   

[JohnStewart]

Thanks for the quick confirmations, I will proceed as planned!

[ChuckS]

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

I think it would be great if you could have a pistol start position and a PCC start position in an adjacent state.

Wow, what don't you like about pistol shooters?

[revoman]

4 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Wow, what don't you like about pistol shooters?

Now that is funny  

[Bkreutz]

7 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Wow, what don't you like about pistol shooters?

And give open shooters a pile of components and a "Whack a Mole" before the start signal.  (BTW, I shoot open)

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, Bkreutz said:

And give open shooters a pile of components and a "Whack a Mole" before the start signal.  (BTW, I shoot open)

I shoot both Open and PCC. All great fun! The big difference I see is that I built a pcc and some mags, took them to a match and they ran 100%. Open hasn't been that kind. It's all good!

[pskys2]

The start position for PCC is always different from pistols, unless both are a table start.

 

But what of the start condition?

I am planning the following:

Pistol loaded and holstered hands on x on wall

PCC unloaded, mag inserted muzzle pointing at x on wall

 

The reason is to balance out the draw of a pistol vs PCC firearm in hand.

I've seen no rule stating it can't be done.

[wgj3]

Perfectly fine as long as all competitors in a given division have the same start position.

[Derrick-508]

from the "evergreen" Rulebook out for member comment

 

5.1.1 Firearms are separated and defined by Divisions (see Appendix D)
however, courses of fire must remain consistent for all Divisions.

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the
safety engaged. PCC Ready Condition: normally the carbine will be
prepared with a loaded chamber, loaded magazine inserted, hammer
cocked, and safety applied. Other ready conditions may be specified,
and must be identical to the handgun ready condition, with the
exception of holstering.

[rowdyb]

Wow, I'd really not enjoy seeing wildly divergent start positions (different than start condition) for different divisions.

[Joe4d]

Consistent for all divisions,, While obviously holstered or in hand is gonna be different for PCC.. May be a stretch to say holsterd vs behind you on a table  is consistent . With one being located in a practiced muscle memory location the other not.
Whats fair, not fair doesnt matter.
Sporting not sporting, doesnt matter,
Competing in division doesnt matter.
Rules matter. Specifically 5.1.1 above..
As CRO or RM Id say no dice...
Really simple fix though... 
Put every one,,, Gun and all mags used for stage on table. Shooters faceing up range hands above shoulders toes on X's

[Bosshoss]

45 minutes ago, Derrick-508 said:

from the "evergreen" Rulebook out for member comment

 

5.1.1 Firearms are separated and defined by Divisions (see Appendix D)
however, courses of fire must remain consistent for all Divisions.

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the
safety engaged. PCC Ready Condition: normally the carbine will be
prepared with a loaded chamber, loaded magazine inserted, hammer
cocked, and safety applied. Other ready conditions may be specified,
and must be identical to the handgun ready condition, with the
exception of holstering.

IMO 5.1.1 doesn't change anything with the question of different start positions or location for PCC. The courses of fire remaining consistent has nothing to do with start position or location. PCC already has different start positions than handgun for uprange starts.

I still see nothing in the rules saying that handguns start on one set of x's at the back of the stage and PCC starts at another set of x's at front of stage isn't allowed. 

PCC is ONLY shooting against other PCC's so it doesn't matter RIGHT?

[teros135]

29 minutes ago, Bosshoss said:

IMO 5.1.1 doesn't change anything with the question of different start positions or location for PCC. The courses of fire remaining consistent has nothing to do with start position or location. PCC already has different start positions than handgun for uprange starts.

I still see nothing in the rules saying that handguns start on one set of x's at the back of the stage and PCC starts at another set of x's at front of stage isn't allowed. 

PCC is ONLY shooting against other PCC's so it doesn't matter RIGHT?

 

If PCC is only shooting against PCC and they need to have a totally different starting place (and thus a different shooting challenge than all the pistol divisions), shouldn't they be having their own match?

 

 

[Bosshoss]

28 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

If PCC is only shooting against PCC and they need to have a totally different starting place (and thus a different shooting challenge than all the pistol divisions), shouldn't they be having their own match?

 

 

Some would say they should have their own match

Actually they do have their own matches. I worked (and didn't even shoot) the area 5(level 3) PCC match at my home club last year and it was PCC ONLY and this year they are having another level 2 PCC ONLY match this year.

 

I could care less one way or another about PCC other than they can be a pain to RO and make sure to get the last shot on the timer, but just looking at the rules I still don't see where it says that PCC has to start in same location as Handgun. 

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, Bosshoss said:

Some would say they should have their own match

Actually they do have their own matches. I worked (and didn't even shoot) the area 5(level 3) PCC match at my home club last year and it was PCC ONLY and this year they are having another level 2 PCC ONLY match this year.

 

I could care less one way or another about PCC other than they can be a pain to RO and make sure to get the last shot on the timer, but just looking at the rules I still don't see where it says that PCC has to start in same location as Handgun. 

 

And it wouldn't state that, just as it doesn't state it for the handgun divisions.  It also doesn't state that there CAN be different start positions for different Divisions. 

 

What I  can't figure out is why conversations like this even happen .

[RaylanGivens]

6 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

And it wouldn't state that, just as it doesn't state it for the handgun divisions.  It also doesn't state that there CAN be different start positions for different Divisions. 

 

What I  can't figure out is why conversations like this even happen .

 

There are two groups of people in the USPSA:

 

     People that hate PCC...

 

     People that shoot PCC...

 

[teros135]

22 minutes ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

There are two groups of people in the USPSA:

 

     People that hate PCC...

 

     People that shoot PCC...

 

 

And that's the usual fallback position when you run out of real data.  

[rowdyb]

So what I'm reading is it would be totally legal to have everyone in their appropriate/equal firearm start condition, but then have the start position be "Production division shooters at mark X. Limited div shooters at mark C. PCC shooters at mark A." And have them possibly be at wildly different spots in the stage. Right?