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arkadi

Shooting Open gun by feel

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You're entering position or just passing by an open close target.

But for some reason the dot is not there, yet you feel -- it's right.

Do you shoot the target without hesitation, or wait for a dot?

Up to what distance?

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I've tried it   …   with varying degrees of success.

 

It's amazing how close you can be, and still miss if you don't

see the sights    :( 

 

Best to try it at the practice range, before you squander some

points and have to argue that there are really two holes on

that target - the R.O.  won't believe you, either, BTW    :) 

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If the red dot from a open gun or a fiber optic sight isn't on the target I'm not pulling the trigger. I have missed closest target before for pulling the trigger without calling my shots.

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Oh, hey, tried exactly this today.  Target in wall opening, as passing by, less than 2 yards away, Alpha Mike.  Cause I’m a dumbass.  Lol.  It’s definately a discipline.  One I must learn.  Must see sight/dot on target or face the possible wasted stage.  I would love to have a few tenths of a second added to my time to get back the lack of 5 points plus a miss penalty swing.

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Everytime I've approached a stage with the "watch how fast I'm going to blast these easy targets" attitude, I've dropped points; I believe it's better to score two alpha like any other array, no faster than you see the dot in the A zone.

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I’m a recent convert from production. 3 months on open gun. Just made M and still adjusting to the dot. Honestly can’t say I even look for a dot on the target type you describe. I shoot them off same index I used with production gun. Maybe it’s there but not anything I’m recognizing. First real hoser match is coming up next week. Maybe my opinion will change after that.


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I shoot most open targets 5 yards and closer through index without any trouble whatsoever. Had a good example of this at a match last week. 3 targets basically arms length away at the start. I didn't even have the cmore in the line between my eye and the target on any of them and was done with the first 3 targets in 1.58. Those 3 targets were 4A 2C with the charlies being 1/16th inch off the A line in the center of the available target on a no-shoot partial. The hit factor of that area of the stage was about 17 (with the stage HHF being 13ish)...I'll take that every single time. Could I have done better by seeing the dot for every shot? Not likely. The key is you need to have trained enough for that strategy to be viable and completely repeatable on demand. If I was coaching a C class shooter with a crappy index through the match I would have told him to see the dot on every one of those shots. The best strategy depends entirely on the circumstances.

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I have also been told by more accomplished shooters they don't even turn the dot on for"Can you count". Supposedly faster if you don't look for the dot. I'm not that good or brave. lol I find it quite amazing just how far off you can be without seeing the dot in the glass.

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I have also been told by more accomplished shooters they don't even turn the dot on for"Can you count". Supposedly faster if you don't look for the dot. I'm not that good or brave. lol I find it quite amazing just how far off you can be without seeing the dot in the glass.

That sounds like a fun experiment. Will have to set “can you count” up and try it.

 

 

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I used to fairly frequently shoot plate racks at 10 with the dot off to build index. On close targets I shoot them with my index, sometimes the dot is visible sometimes it isn't. But that doesn't change how I shoot them.

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6 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

I shoot plate racks at 10 with the dot off to build index. 

 

Sounds like a great drill    :cheers:

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Anything within 5 yards you should be able to point shoot regardless of the gun type or class.  This is one of those cases where all that dry fire pays off.

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If you have a solid index, and consistent grip, you should be able to hit all Alphas on a close target.  I set a new personal best on Smoke and Hope last month while only using my sights for the stop plate.  Hits were pretty well centered on the targets too.

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I personally would never practice it, or purposely point shoot without looking for the dot.  However, I often do shoot very close targets and have no recollection of seeing the dot.  So, yeah.  I just felt right.  

 

My personal interpretation of that is that we can see way faster than we give ourselves credit for.  So although I didn't consciously aim with the dot, I certainly feel I subconsciously did.   

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The (precise) movement of body and it parts is a constant loop of visual and kinesthetic sensory feedback and corrections. Even though the whole is more than the sum of the parts, putting an emphasis on solely kinesthetic feedback, I think - as a dedicated element of the training - make a demand for the brain to improve here qualitatively.

IIRC, kinesiology studies concludes that kinesthetic based corrections are around 140ms and visual based are 260-320ms. While the studies I've read (1) did not examine action shooters and their challenges specifically; and (2) there is probably a difference between sensory-based correction and I recollect I saw the dot (or not) - the kinesthetics kicks-in first. Also, neurobiology documents cases where people are conciously blind but still can precisely point to flashlight put in front of them - there are multiple pathways and layers of visual information processing.

Appreciate the comments and diversity of views.

@Alaskan454 I trained to shoot Smoke and Hope by feel, it's hard to miss those huge plates. ?

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@arkadi I forgot I posted this video a while back.  On the last string those round plates were pretty much point shooting, I used the fiber optic dot but didn't worry about the rear notch.  You need to have a consistent grip though, otherwise you're just as likely to get six Mikes as six Alphas.  Once the bigger plates fell I switched to a hard focus for the bowling pins.  There was a period of time when I played around with how much faster I could go by feel, and decided it wasn't worth the risk outside of a few yards.  

 

 

 

Edited by Alaskan454

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Today I set 3 IPSC targets at 2m in triangle config - probably something similar to @Jake Di Vita match experience but without penalties, and managed them in 1.77s with a 0.84s draw, all A, for a HF of 16.95.

I think my close index blasting department is ok. ?

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I know this is an older thread but would be great to see it revisited and possibly expanded upon. In an effort to get used to shooting carry Optics, moving over from Limited,I started to research the benefits of kinesthetic shooting since finding the dot on hard leans, angles and close up quickly is definitely a change. Several modern-day practitioners as well as a retired Navy SEAL friend (who has literally been there and back and definitely knows his sh***) preach the benefits of accurate handgun shooting through index (no sights) up to 10 yards and sometimes beyond. Anyone additionally care to share their experiences with index shooting?

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Leans and corners sure challenge a red dot.  I have found that slide mounted optics are easier to index shoot because you still have a similar angle to iron sites.  Frame mounted optics can leave you guessing a bit due to the compensation we make to see the dot.

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Practice them w/ great frequency and those leans and body index comes naturally on demand. Dot or irons doesnt matter. 

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Just shoot. If your running a dot both eyes will be open! The recoil will help the dot appear. If you see the first shot was good, move on... If not shoot another round! 

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A long time ago I asked Todd Jarrett, who at the time was on his way to crushing every Area match, Nationals and I think the World Shoot that year if he saw his dot on every target, even crazy close 1-yard ones like the one I was asking about at.

 

He said "yeah.  I look at the targets to shoot them and the dot is there".   He didn't look _for_ the dot per-se, just had a good enough index that it was always where he was looking when he fired at a target.

 

There's a lot to that.  If you're looking at a target through your scope and the dot isn't there, your index (or your dot) has failed.

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On 5/18/2018 at 4:40 PM, Hi-Power Jack said:

I've tried it   …   with varying degrees of success.

 

It's amazing how close you can be, and still miss if you don't

see the sights    :( 

 

Best to try it at the practice range, before you squander some

points and have to argue that there are really two holes on

that target - the R.O.  won't believe you, either, BTW    :) 

 

haha. This reminded me of my last match last week. about 2 feet.... "shot by feel" .... had to make it up.

 

 

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