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J_Allen

8 shot is how much better?

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Posted (edited)

I know with the 8 shot arrays, the only way to be truly competitive in revolver division is to shoot 8 shot minor. I have been shooting 6 shot major (because that’s what I had), and was wondering how much of a disadvantage it is. Obviously on classifiers, it would depend on the set-up. I recently shot a 6 shot array classifier, and did a lot better on it than last year, so was happy with the personal improvement. And I don’t think having a lower power factor (thus less recoil) would have been a significant factor at all (for me at least). In fact, I believe that the extra points of shooting major allowed me to go faster. But I remember getting hosed on a 8 shot array classifier last year with a mandatory reload after engaging each target once - so for a 625 = three reloads will really kill your score. So maybe for classification, it evens out over time since you are using your higher scores. However, for a match with longer field courses, having the extra shots will have the edge. So not debating the virtues of the 627, 929, etc. Rather, I am thinking about sticking with my 625, and just concentrating on personal improvement. But how much is it holding me back? If it’s just 5%, then I don’t think there is much incentive to get a new rig. I’m sure it could matter to someone at the competitive end of the spectrum but I’m not there yet. Any idea how much of a difference it would make to you?

Edited by J_Allen

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Gotta factor in your reloads, that's the biggest thing. If you can make them up on the move, not a huge problem, even if you move 1 or 2 steps but you're really fast (shouldn't be too hard with those giant holes). But almost all of the locals I shoot force me to do standing reloads, even with my 8 shots, so I'm almost always at a disadvantage anyway. Are there any other revo guys around you? Maybe go shoot against/with them and see how you do. The major power factor will definitely help you speed up. Can't really tell until you go shoot against other people.

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on a properly set up match, the only advantage that a 8 will have is on a steel stage in ICORE.  This was with the previous rule book and with new rule book, the 6 shots and classic divisions got hung out to dry.  no more 6 shot neutral arrays.   I will shoot my 8 shot as a 6 shot on paper with the benefit of having 2 extra shots to make up a B or a C shot.  Angus Hobdell won Limited division many years ago at a IRC with a 625, so the 6 shot is competitive, but with the old rule book.  In USPSA, a 6 shot is standing reload at every array.   They will set up the stages with a 8 round minimum for the single stake major guns and we just happen to benefit with a  627  or 929 for a level 2 match or above.  For a local or leval 1 match, they can set up 10 rounds in one shooting positions and you will have to just go with the flow.

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In my recent experience with USPSA matches the 6 shooter would have been just fine for most field courses and medium courses.  It only kills you in the speed shoots or short courses that don't have enough distance to reload on the move.  At our local match match last weekend I designed a stage that gave me enough steps to reload on the move.  I ended up trailing a GM open shooter by ~10 percent on stage points.  On every other stage I was 20-40% behind the leader.  Reloading on the move is key.

 

In general I actually prefer shooting 6 major but have been shooting 8 minor since bullets are cheaper and you avoid the forced standing reloads.  

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For me at a typical USPSA match I average 3% higher in the overall with 8-minor vs 6 major. With the light turnout in revo division, a few percent doesn't make a difference for too many of us. Run what you brung.

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Wow! I’m really (pleasantly) surprised that the difference appears to be so close. My main motivation is not to win a major match (where I’m sure a few percentage points actually matters), but just to improve my own skill set. Of course, the classification system is the only way to collect any objective data in that regard. If it was holding me back a full class, then I’d be looking at upgrading. As it is, I’m probably a solid C shooter this year (was upper D last year), but really want to break into the B’s. I think that would give me the extra push for winter dry fire practice, which I did a little last year, but not nearly enough.

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It's not that close, there's plenty of data to show it's much further apart. But if you're just having fun don't worry about it.

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2 minutes ago, MWP said:

But if you're just having fun don't worry about it.

 

+100

 

I hate it that 6 shot revolver is at a disadvantage & rarely seen in the wild. Before the rule change it was a lot of fun to see a friend (GM) get very creative with stage execution. 

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I agree that having fun is the most important thing for me (at least this year). I guess it was more curiosity than anything. Thanks for the responses so far. I’d be happy to look at some of the data if someone could point me in the right direction.

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4 hours ago, MWP said:

It's not that close, there's plenty of data to show it's much further apart. But if you're just having fun don't worry about it.

 

This. 

 

To confirm this, just look at the scores for Revolver nationals for the past few years? How many 8 shot minor vs 6 shot major shooters? How well did the 6 shot major do? 

 

 

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This. 
 
To confirm this, just look at the scores for Revolver nationals for the past few years? How many 8 shot minor vs 6 shot major shooters? How well did the 6 shot major do? 
 
 
Oh, you mean the single stack match with all the 7 and 8 shot positions and nowhere to use rounds 9-12?

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2 hours ago, PatJones said:
3 hours ago, alecmc said:
 
This. 
 
To confirm this, just look at the scores for Revolver nationals for the past few years? How many 8 shot minor vs 6 shot major shooters? How well did the 6 shot major do? 
 
 

Oh, you mean the single stack match with all the 7 and 8 shot positions and nowhere to use rounds 9-12?

those are the ones.

 

8 is almost always more gooder than 6

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8 is almost always more gooder than 6


I'm not saying it isn't, but it isn't as big a deal as folks make it out to be.

I shoot an 8 shot at major matches, but very few of us are fortunate enough to have competition within 5% of our scores at a level one match.

I've had a couple shooters with lower classifications tell me they're not "competitive" with they're 6 shots anymore. Let's be honest, some of us wouldn't be competitive if we had 12 shot revolvers. Run what you already have, it's not likely to matter anyway.

My scores are about 3 precent better in the overall with a 8 shot as compared to Charlie Perez. He's a top shooter and a good consistent benchmark. In Revolver division it would be a higher percentage, but it's not double.

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Posted (edited)

My first year all I had was a 6 shot revo. That was what I had and so that was what I shot, there was no discussion or debate.

 

Second year I added an 8 shot. For me it did more than just give me 2 extra rounds before reloads. That year I tried to convince myself that the 6 shot forced me to be more careful of where I placed my shots, making me a better shooter. Ha Ha!  A few weeks ago I shot (5 stage static outlaw steel challenge style match) on the same squad with a guy that used a 625. This shooter had one (1) makeup shot the entire match while I had about 15. Didn't help him in the standing though as there was over a minute between our scores. True I need to reduce my number of makeups but I will take my score over his any day.

 

Truth is for me I'm a better shooter now but not because I have extra ammos, but rather because I have put a little more effort into my marksmanship. I think though that you have to convince yourself that the path your on is the correct for you. At the same time I was telling myself that I was more shot conscience with a 6 shot I was also trying to convince myself that id*a was good for development of defensive carry skills. What was I thinking?

 

I now believe that it all comes down to the personal level of commitment and enjoyment. Going from a 6 shot L frame to an 8 shot N frame in a competition environment is somewhat of a dollar and cents factor. I know a fellow revo shooter that is beginning the 3rd year of shooting static steel and is no better today than the first match based on scores. That person started same as me, a 6 shot then on to an 8 shot. This individual has the gear so it's not the tackle. I have concluded that some individuals apparently don't seem to mind the lack of advancement and are there strictly for the joy of shooting. Not my way of doing things but we are all different.

 

Since getting an 8 shot I hardly ever shoot my 6 shot but still would not want to get rid if it and all of the associated Bric-à-brac.

Edited by firewood

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I have to admit a fair amount of 8-shot envy. Still shooting classic, dancing with the girl that brought me - Smith 66 K frame. Currently, I only shoot revolver at a monthly ICORE match. In my mind, it's masochistic to shoot USPSA with less than 8 on board. At the end of an ICORE match, I usually share the bottom spots with the only other classic shooter. Having assumed it was our disadvantage in equipment, last month the match was won by a skilled shooter who brought his 66 so he could "try" classic. So it can be done and basically, I just suck (or looking on the positive, have a lot to learn). 

 

We typically shoot a couple "Speed Steel" style stages so I have an understanding of need for make-up shots. My MO is just to take the miss. I know this kills my score but doing a re-load for an extra shot and then getting to the next string with less than a full cylinder makes the math too much for me and sucks the fun out of it.

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More rounds gives one more flexibility in how you run a stage.  If Ruger brought out a 9-shot Super Redhawk in 327 Federal Mag (with fullmoon clips), I would have one very soon.  I know it would only be legal in ICORE, but it would be fun.  Every round counts.

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14 hours ago, PatJones said:

My scores are about 3 precent better in the overall with a 8 shot as compared to Charlie Perez. He's a top shooter and a good consistent benchmark. In Revolver division it would be a higher percentage, but it's not double.

 

 

Ok, I like numbers so I'll throw out a few when I looked into this. There are several top uspsa shooters who have already proven the 8 is better. 

 

If you go back to the one and only time a top nationals competitor fielded a 6 major gun at nationals, and remove the stage where his gun failed- he finished at 85% of the match winner. This was someone who previously finished above 99% multiple times. 

 

If you look at winners for both limited and classic at the IRC, factor out some variables like Far and Near, you'll see a window appear of how far ahead the 8 shot is over the 6. That window is 8-20%, with the majority of those being closer to 10-13% advantage going to the 8 shot. 

 

In uspsa, I think the margin is right around 12-15%, and slightly less in icore because of the typical stage setup. The hit factors are so low in uspsa that major scoring doesn't really help. The .10-.15 second reloading advantage the 625 has over the 929 doesn't come in play when loads are happening on the move. Steel is always worth the same, and the splits are faster with minor, for the top and lowest shooters. 

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Thank you, this was exactly the sort of hard data I was interested in.

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I shot a Level II USPSA match over the weekend and take back my previous comments.   Everyone has different approaches to stage design and the match would not have been as fun shooting 6 Major.  My 625 would have needed 3-4 extra reloads per stage due to target placement.  There were even a few forced reloads with an 8 shooter due to the definition of "location and view".  If I were able to shoot it back to back I'm guessing 15% would be a reasonable difference.

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Thanks for the follow up. I did just go to the dark side (8 shooter), so we’ll see how much of a difference it makes.

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It's going to make a huge difference. I think the only place where a 6 shooter is even fun is ID*A (if you have a 4" barrel and can tolerate the pain) and ICORE Classic/Limited 6. Assuming that you keep your 6 shooter and just add an 8 shot you have enough hardware to be a full time cowboy!

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