Match DQ Fair or Not?

[zzt]

Level 1 only, or all levels?

[Racinready300ex]

In my mind it doesn't make sense to PE someone for not moving. Just make them reshoot from correct box. No advantage would be gained. If you don't shoot much steel challenge this could be a easy trap to fall into, that a RO could easily just remind you to move, or let you get the PE if he doesn't like you.

 

This is coming from someone who's only shot all 8 stages one time, and that was at a East Coast Regional or what ever they called it a couple years ago. Before that match I had never shot the stage in question. With out a little guidance I wouldn't of known what to do. Most likely next time I'll still need a reminder. You guy's who train SC it may seem like a no brainier.

 

 

[Thomas H]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

In my mind it doesn't make sense to PE someone for not moving. Just make them reshoot from correct box. No advantage would be gained. If you don't shoot much steel challenge this could be a easy trap to fall into, that a RO could easily just remind you to move, or let you get the PE if he doesn't like you.

 

This is coming from someone who's only shot all 8 stages one time, and that was at a East Coast Regional or what ever they called it a couple years ago. Before that match I had never shot the stage in question. With out a little guidance I wouldn't of known what to do. Most likely next time I'll still need a reminder. You guy's who train SC it may seem like a no brainier.

 

 

 

Heck, even though I'm a CRO I sometimes get so into "getting ready to shoot" I forget to move!  It's an easy thing to have occur, no matter what experience level you have.

 

Having the CRO (or scoring RO) call "switch boxes" after the third string shouldn't be a big deal, I'd think.  As people have said---if you are in the wrong box, how can you be in the correct start position? 

[zzt]

I guess it depends on your definition of 'start position'.  Clearly SCSA has a different interpretation than USPSA does.  This discussion makes me understand a little better the complaints SC shooters have with USPSA only ROs.  Many USPSA ROs do not understand SCSA rules, and insist that USPSA rules apply, even when an SCSA rule says otherwise.  I've had it happen several times to me when I was not ROing.  Now I bring a copy of the SCSA rules with me in my range bag.  I don't often have to take it out, because a simple explanation of the SCSA rule usually suffices.  However, there are hard cases.

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread.  The new rule book is a big help, and everyone is becoming more comfortable with them.  Zack's proposed new optional rule will settle this latest question.  Hopefully, it will apply to all levels.

[ZackJones]

Level 1 only, or all levels?

I meant it as a joke but if it was incorporated it would be for all levels. Even if you aren’t running the timer or scoring you can still remind them or the competitor to move at any level. This would not be considered coaching.

[ADulay]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 8:50 AM, ZackJones said:

 

When in doubt I refer to Troy's #1 Rule for RO's and that's "Don't be a prick." When it's time to move tell the competitor if he doesn't move on his own.

 

Excellent.

 

AD

[Nimitz]

On May 22, 2018 at 2:34 PM, motosapiens said:

 

Not sure I understand.... what rules is it not in accordance with? is there some rule I don't know about that says you can't get dq'd after the fact, or you can only get dq'd with a particular gun? Can you point those rules out to me?

 

You don't even have to be holding a gun to get dq'd (from the whole match) for handling ammo in a safety area. IMHO, the rules are clear and fair. If you don't like being dq'd from the whole match, just don't commit safety violations.

 

As an RO try the following at your next level II or higher match and watch what happens:

 

shooter completes a stage run, ULASC, RO calls 'range is clear'.  No RO brings up any issue related to a possible DQ.  Shooter leaves the shooting area, 5 more competitiors shoot the stage, 20 mins goes by .... RO #1 goes to RO #2 " I think we need to DQ that shooter from 20 minutes ago due to XYZ" ......

 

never gonna happen .....

 

this is is what happens at SC matches because wwe're allowed to shoot multiple guns at the same time ..... This BTW is one of many reasons I think either USPSA needs to recognize that SC is not USPSA and rules may need to be different to cover the sport correctly or just sell it and let someone else run the sport on its own .... (Exit soap box now)

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Nimitz said:

 

As an RO try the following at your next level II or higher match and watch what happens:

 

shooter completes a stage run, ULASC, RO calls 'range is clear'.  No RO brings up any issue related to a possible DQ.  Shooter leaves the shooting area, 5 more competitiors shoot the stage, 20 mins goes by .... RO #1 goes to RO #2 " I think we need to DQ that shooter from 20 minutes ago due to XYZ" ......

 

never gonna happen .....

 

agreed it seems unlikely, but there's nothing in the rules preventing it. I think it would be more likely where the RO's initially made the wrong call and then got it straight later.

 

Nonetheless, I think that has no bearing on the situation. If a shooter dq's from a match, he dq's from a match. period.

 

I shot 2 guns at a L2 steel match yesterday. If I had been dq'd from the match while shooting with one of them, I would have to be pretty silly to think I could just keep shooting the other one. The obvious solution is to simply shoot safely. There's no good reason to dq in a steel match.

[Gooldylocks]

7 hours ago, Nimitz said:

 

As an RO try the following at your next level II or higher match and watch what happens:

 

shooter completes a stage run, ULASC, RO calls 'range is clear'.  No RO brings up any issue related to a possible DQ.  Shooter leaves the shooting area, 5 more competitiors shoot the stage, 20 mins goes by .... RO #1 goes to RO #2 " I think we need to DQ that shooter from 20 minutes ago due to XYZ" ......

 

never gonna happen .....

 

this is is what happens at SC matches because wwe're allowed to shoot multiple guns at the same time ..... This BTW is one of many reasons I think either USPSA needs to recognize that SC is not USPSA and rules may need to be different to cover the sport correctly or just sell it and let someone else run the sport on its own .... (Exit soap box now)

But in that scenario if the shooter came back up to the line with their PCC after bagging their pistol and DQ'd, they certainly wouldn't be allowed to continue with their pistol. DNF for the rest. We have people shoot 2 guns all the time at USPSA, that's not just a SCSA phenomenon. If YOU (the shooter) get DQ'd, you are disqualified not your gun. Hell I could break my gun then go borrow yours since it isn't what got disqualified. 

 

::ETA:: that isn't to say that we can't DQ guns. We can, as ROs. But the only reason you can DQ a gun is if it is demonstrably unsafe. Kinda like a shooter that got DQ'd has been demonstrably unsafe....

Edited May 29, 2018 by Gooldylocks

[Hammer002]

Nevermind.  My head hurts

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Hammer002

[38super]

Are you a squeaky wheel (whiner / bench warmer) or responsible for your actions?   Do we promote unsafe gun handling for the sake of match fee or a score card?  What do you do after a match DQ, kick the dog or jump back in and help the match where you can?  I've DQ'd my self (lefty reload in a righty stage).

 

[Andyk]

A couple years ago I got DQed at a Tier 2, first stage, first gun.  Since I had not fired a round yet on the second gun, I thought it would be fair to transfer that entry to my daughter.  MD didn't see it that way.

[davsco]

3 hours ago, Andyk said:

A couple years ago I got DQed at a Tier 2, first stage, first gun.  Since I had not fired a round yet on the second gun, I thought it would be fair to transfer that entry to my daughter.  MD didn't see it that way.

that's kinda crappy.  what's it take, a minute, to add/replace a shooter on a nook?

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

12 hours ago, davsco said:

that's kinda crappy.  what's it take, a minute, to add/replace a shooter on a nook?

 

 

 

I think the MD's obligation would be in following the rules and treating everyone equal. To the best of my knowledge the rules do not allow a cash refund or ,friend-family-somebody who will pay you for the entry, reassignment option for the second entry. 

[pskys2]

DQ is a punishment.  Allowing one to continue at that venue would not be in the spirit of punishment would it.

But you shouldn't be retroactively punished, which is why your existing scores stand.

[IHAVEGAS]

11 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

DQ is a punishment. 

 

I think of it as a training tool and a means of protection. 

 

As an r.o. I am not in the punishment business. 

[pskys2]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think of it as a training tool and a means of protection. 

 

As an r.o. I am not in the punishment business. 

I understand and agree.  But it is still a switch not a carrot.

[IHAVEGAS]

11 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

I understand and agree.  But it is still a switch not a carrot.

 

+1

[stick]

17 hours ago, davsco said:

that's kinda crappy.  what's it take, a minute, to add/replace a shooter on a nook?

 

 

If that!  Now it takes 10 seconds to move a shooter to a squad.

[davsco]

43 minutes ago, stick said:

If that!  Now it takes 10 seconds to move a shooter to a squad.

you're prob a gm/m in nooks, i'm just a b/c...  ahaha  but to be fair, here we're talking about adding a new (replacement) shooter.

 

i still say it's a little crappy not to let someone switch out/in at the last minute.  really no cost to anyone in time or money.  i'm not advocating for a refund, that's different.

[stick]

14 minutes ago, davsco said:

you're prob a gm/m in nooks, i'm just a b/c...  ahaha  but to be fair, here we're talking about adding a new (replacement) shooter.

 

i still say it's a little crappy not to let someone switch out/in at the last minute.  really no cost to anyone in time or money.  i'm not advocating for a refund, that's different.

I agree.  

We had to enter a new shooter at yesterday's match.  It literally took 30 seconds.  We did it between the first and second shooter.  Matches allow transfers all the time.  Look in the classifieds, shooters are always selling spots for a discount in matches they can't shoot and are unable to get a refund.  Why would they not let her shoot?  Especially is she's a junior!

[IHAVEGAS]

23 hours ago, Andyk said:

A couple years ago I got DQed at a Tier 2, first stage, first gun.  Since I had not fired a round yet on the second gun, I thought it would be fair to transfer that entry to my daughter.  MD didn't see it that way.

 

1 hour ago, davsco said:

  i'm not advocating for a refund, that's different.

 

If I understood Andyk correctly he inquired if his match fee (entry) could be used to allow his daughter to shoot, which is the same as getting a cash refund and applying it to another shooter. 

 

Maybe I misunderstood . 

[davsco]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

If I understood Andyk correctly he inquired if his match fee (entry) could be used to allow his daughter to shoot, which is the same as getting a cash refund and applying it to another shooter. 

 

Maybe I misunderstood . 

a refund means the match is getting less $$$.  switching shooters isn't costing the match anything.  in the interests of PR and customer relations, can't see why a MD wouldn't allow that, especially if the 'shooter transfer' is outside the realm of the MD, ie the MD isn't giving money back to shooter A and then having to get it from shooter B.  i've never been a MD so maybe i'm missing something.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, davsco said:

in the interests of PR and customer relations

 

You treat everyone the same, we all eat the entry fee(s) or nobody eats the fee(s).