Match DQ Fair or Not?

[Scootertheshooter]

 
Take it up with your Area Director is all I can say. I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to get the DQ to be match based instead of event based and I can't get it

Zack
Is there a way to post the area directors and contact info if no other reason to make it easier to mention this ?



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[wtturn]

9 minutes ago, Scootertheshooter said:

54 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

 
Take it up with your Area Director is all I can say. I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to get the DQ to be match based instead of event based and I can't get it

Zack
Is there a way to post the area directors and contact info if no other reason to make it easier to mention this ?



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http://uspsa.org/contact

[Scootertheshooter]

 
http://uspsa.org/contact

Nice job I have already sent my director my concern and thoughts on rewriting this rule. I do encourage others to do the same


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[Thomas H]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:40 AM, Nimitz said:

 It does not address the central issue which is - eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules - is inappropriate, grossly unfair and not in accordance with our other rules ...

 

We aren't DQing the gun.  As such, "the gun" isn't the point.  The person is the point.

 

The person committed an unsafe act.  We don't care what gun was used, or even IF a gun was used.  (Ex:  DQ due to handling ammunition in a Safety Area.)

 

The person was unsafe.  Therefore, the person is not allowed to shoot after that point in time in that event, period.  If there were any guns left to shoot, they don't get to shoot them.

 

The argument of "eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules" doesn't hold, because what the person is holding at the time isn't the point.  We don't DQ guns.  Or divisions.  We DQ people for specific actions.  After the DQ, they no longer shoot.

 

Now, if people want to change the rules so that people can keep shooting in another division after they DQ in one, then as Zack says, people should contact their Area Director regarding that.

 

Personally, as other people have pointed out, I'm thinking that would defeat the general idea of DQing people who aren't currently acting in a safe fashion with a firearm, and also means that people will then turn around and sign up for a second division to keep shooting---which would be right after demonstrating that they aren't being safe with a gun.  (Personally, I wouldn't want to be the match director who DQs a guy in one division, lets him keep shooting, and then has the guy cause an injury in another division due to unsafe gun handling.)

 

I don't LIKE the current rule.  However, I understand it and think it is the best choice possible at the moment.   Just my opinion, though, and as Zack said--if you want it changed, then talk to your Area Director.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zzt]

Zack.  Rule 2.4.3 At any level match, the range officer may assist or remind the competitor of stage requirements, magazine changes, etc. without penalty.

 

Is this before the first string, or during?  Specifically, a shooter shoots three strings from the left box in Showdown, but does not move for the fourth string.  As the timing RO, am I permitted to remind the shooter to move under this rule, or do I stay silent and award a procedural after he shoots?

[ZackJones]

30 minutes ago, zzt said:

Zack.  Rule 2.4.3 At any level match, the range officer may assist or remind the competitor of stage requirements, magazine changes, etc. without penalty.

 

Is this before the first string, or during?  Specifically, a shooter shoots three strings from the left box in Showdown, but does not move for the fourth string.  As the timing RO, am I permitted to remind the shooter to move under this rule, or do I stay silent and award a procedural after he shoots?

 

At any point between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear" the RO can provide assistance. What lead to this rule is something that happened at the Kentucky State Championship last year. A competitor on our squad had recently switched from the BX-25 magazines to the BX-10 magazines and kept forgetting to change mags between strings. It really bugged me that I couldn't remind him to change his mags.

 

[getting on my soapbox]

With regards to Showdown - I believe that we, the match staff which includes the RO's, are in the customer service business. The competitors are our customers and it's OUR job to make sure our customers have a pleasant experience at the event. At matches where I'm running competitors or keeping scores I usually say "Time to move." if the competitor shoots 3 from the first box and doesn't initiate moving on their own. At South Carolina State this past weekend I announced during the shooter's meeting that the RO's would help remind the competitor to move if necessary. I recognize there are MD's and RO's that will disagree and say it's all on the competitor and that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

[getting off my soapbox]

 

[zzt]

Thanks Zack.  I agree.

[stick]

4 hours ago, zzt said:

Zack.  Rule 2.4.3 At any level match, the range officer may assist or remind the competitor of stage requirements, magazine changes, etc. without penalty.

 

Is this before the first string, or during?  Specifically, a shooter shoots three strings from the left box in Showdown, but does not move for the fourth string.  As the timing RO, am I permitted to remind the shooter to move under this rule, or do I stay silent and award a procedural after he shoots?

Is that a USPSA Rule?  I don't see it in the SCSA Rules!

[zzt]

SCSA.  Page 8, Feb 2018 rule book, 2.4.3 Coaching.  USPSA is just the opposite.  Coaching of any kind is forbidden, and the penalties can range anywhere from  Procedurals to DQs.  

Edited May 22, 2018 by zzt

[stick]

2 minutes ago, zzt said:

SCSA.  Page 8, Feb 2018 rule book, 2.4.3 Coaching.  USPSA is just the opposite.  Coaching of any kind is forbidden, and the penalties can range anywhere from  Procedurals to a DQs.  

I'm an idiot.  I was looking at the 2011 SCSA rules.  I remember reading it on my PC, but couldn't find it until I realized I had both the 2011 & 2014 PDF's installed.

I also thought the rule only applied to level 1 matches.  Am I missing the point?

[zzt]

Calling misses if requested by the shooter is permitted in Level 1 matches.  RO assistance is permitted at any level.

[stick]

2 minutes ago, zzt said:

Calling misses if requested by the shooter is permitted in Level 1 matches.  RO assistance is permitted at any level.

Thank you!

[motosapiens]

On 5/19/2018 at 6:40 AM, Nimitz said:

eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules - is inappropriate, grossly unfair and not in accordance with our other rules ...

 

Not sure I understand.... what rules is it not in accordance with? is there some rule I don't know about that says you can't get dq'd after the fact, or you can only get dq'd with a particular gun? Can you point those rules out to me?

 

You don't even have to be holding a gun to get dq'd (from the whole match) for handling ammo in a safety area. IMHO, the rules are clear and fair. If you don't like being dq'd from the whole match, just don't commit safety violations.

Edited May 22, 2018 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

SCSA.  Page 8, Feb 2018 rule book, 2.4.3 Coaching.  USPSA is just the opposite.  Coaching of any kind is forbidden, and the penalties can range anywhere from  Procedurals to DQs.  

 

true-ish (at L2 matches and above), however doesn't apply to the example of reminding someone to move to the other box for Showdown. by uspsa rules, if the RO starts you when you are not in the correct start position, you *must* reshoot the stage (starting in the correct start position). There is no such thing as a procedural for starting in the wrong position.

[zzt]

moto, correct.  I was thinking of 8.6.2, not 8.6.2.1

 

USPSA Rule 10.2.6 Creeping:  A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty.

[Hammer002]

On 5/21/2018 at 10:39 AM, Thomas H said:

 

We aren't DQing the gun.  As such, "the gun" isn't the point.  The person is the point.

 

The person committed an unsafe act.  We don't care what gun was used, or even IF a gun was used.  (Ex:  DQ due to handling ammunition in a Safety Area.)

 

The person was unsafe.  Therefore, the person is not allowed to shoot after that point in time in that event, period.  If there were any guns left to shoot, they don't get to shoot them.

 

The argument of "eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules" doesn't hold, because what the person is holding at the time isn't the point.  We don't DQ guns.  Or divisions.  We DQ people for specific actions.  After the DQ, they no longer shoot.

 

Now, if people want to change the rules so that people can keep shooting in another division after they DQ in one, then as Zack says, people should contact their Area Director regarding that.

 

Personally, as other people have pointed out, I'm thinking that would defeat the general idea of DQing people who aren't currently acting in a safe fashion with a firearm, and also means that people will then turn around and sign up for a second division to keep shooting---which would be right after demonstrating that they aren't being safe with a gun.  (Personally, I wouldn't want to be the match director who DQs a guy in one division, lets him keep shooting, and then has the guy cause an injury in another division due to unsafe gun handling.)

 

I don't LIKE the current rule.  However, I understand it and think it is the best choice possible at the moment.   Just my opinion, though, and as Zack said--if you want it changed, then talk to your Area Director.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is how I feel about the entire situation too.  Goes along with the adage, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”  It actually confuses me why anyone would see it otherwise, unless it’s revenue that’s the true interest, or selfishness and ego keeping someone from accepting he just messed up.  99 percent of rules leading to disqualification are due to safety violations.  The PERSON is UNSAFE and therefore does not shoot anymore.  There is valid debate for how to score it, but as I see it from a healthy match perspective, no reason to think someone disqualified should be able to continue to shoot, just with a different gun or in a different division.  That’s absolutely ridiculous.  If someone puts others safety in jeapardy, they go home. Period.

 

On 5/21/2018 at 1:21 PM, ZackJones said:

 

At any point between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear" the RO can provide assistance. What lead to this rule is something that happened at the Kentucky State Championship last year. A competitor on our squad had recently switched from the BX-25 magazines to the BX-10 magazines and kept forgetting to change mags between strings. It really bugged me that I couldn't remind him to change his mags.

 

[getting on my soapbox]

With regards to Showdown - I believe that we, the match staff which includes the RO's, are in the customer service business. The competitors are our customers and it's OUR job to make sure our customers have a pleasant experience at the event. At matches where I'm running competitors or keeping scores I usually say "Time to move." if the competitor shoots 3 from the first box and doesn't initiate moving on their own. At South Carolina State this past weekend I announced during the shooter's meeting that the RO's would help remind the competitor to move if necessary. I recognize there are MD's and RO's that will disagree and say it's all on the competitor and that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

[getting off my soapbox]

 

 

Showdown has long been an issue for me.  First, people try to say you must shoot 2, then 2, then pick the last box.  Finally the rules clarified this for the less intelligent rule nazis.  Now we have another problem.  Current rules call for a procedural if the competitor fails to move boxes after 3.  However, this cannot occur, because yet another rule states a RO cannot start a shooter in an incorrect/invalid position and If does, it’s a reshoot at worst.  It hasn’t happened to me, and hopefully never will, but it annoys the everloving crap out of me to hear ROs or MDs go on and on about this or read it to everyone with emphasis.  Not only is it bad form, as Zack eluded to above, but it’s a writing of the rules that needs fixing so there just isn’t the confusion.  Yes, the shooter should know.  But so should the RO.  At a low level, it’s easy to forget.  At a high level, it’s amazing how reshoots or other unexpected breaks in shooting can cause confusion leading to not moving.  A RO may not begin someone in the wrong position.  Just like a RO cannot start a competitor without hands properly in the surrender position and add a penalty for that either.  An RO cannot start a competitor with their gun on target, finger on trigger and incur penalties either..  A RO could not start a shooter who was standing outside of the box and incur a penalty for that either.  I hope they fix this soon.  I think most of us understand what’s supposed to be going on and are interested in true competition.  However there are those, usually of less practiced skill, always looking to screw with people, or at least cause negativity, conflict, and argument rather than shoot.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Hammer002

[dkamps]

The answer for pretty much everything is... it depends.

 

but for 95% of circumstances I’d say the DQ should databd for all divisions; it’s the shooter who DQ’d, not the gun.

 

if the shooter is shooting another division on another day depending on the match. That would be debatable and I’d say that they should be able to shoot. 

[ZackJones]

12 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

Showdown has long been an issue for me.  First, people try to say you must shoot 2, then 2, then pick the last box.  Finally the rules clarified this for the less intelligent rule nazis.  Now we have another problem.  Current rules call for a procedural if the competitor fails to move boxes after 3.  However, this cannot occur, because yet another rule states a RO cannot start a shooter in an incorrect/invalid position and If does, it’s a reshoot at worst.  It hasn’t happened to me, and hopefully never will, but it annoys the everloving crap out of me to hear ROs or MDs go on and on about this or read it to everyone with emphasis.  Not only is it bad form, as Zack eluded to above, but it’s a writing of the rules that needs fixing so there just isn’t the confusion.  Yes, the shooter should know.  But so should the RO.  At a low level, it’s easy to forget.  At a high level, it’s amazing how reshoots or other unexpected breaks in shooting can cause confusion leading to not moving.  A RO may not begin someone in the wrong position.  Just like a RO cannot start a competitor without hands properly in the surrender position and add a penalty for that either.  An RO cannot start a competitor with their gun on target, finger on trigger and incur penalties either..  A RO could not start a shooter who was standing outside of the box and incur a penalty for that either.  I hope they fix this soon.  I think most of us understand what’s supposed to be going on and are interested in true competition.  However there are those, usually of less practiced skill, always looking to screw with people, or at least cause negativity, conflict, and argument rather than shoot.

 

I thought about something that happened at WSSC last year. A competitor and RO failed to move after 3 strings and competitor shot 4th string from the first box. The RM (Troy McManus) was called to the stage. The decision was made for the 4th string to be thrown out. Have the competitor move, without penalty, and shoot his last two strings from the proper box. So if the highest rule authority in the land isn't assessing penalties that tells me it's on the RO to make sure the competitor is in the right box. I'll see if we can get things clarified in the rules. When in doubt I refer to Troy's #1 Rule for RO's and that's "Don't be a prick." When it's time to move tell the competitor if he doesn't move on his own.

[Scootertheshooter]

 
I thought about something that happened at WSSC last year. A competitor and RO failed to move after 3 strings and competitor shot 4th string from the first box. The RM (Troy McManus) was called to the stage. The decision was made for the 4th string to be thrown out. Have the competitor move, without penalty, and shoot his last two strings from the proper box. So if the highest rule authority in the land isn't assessing penalties that tells me it's on the RO to make sure the competitor is in the right box. I'll see if we can get things clarified in the rules. When in doubt I refer to Troy's #1 Rule for RO's and that's "Don't be a prick." When it's time to move tell the competitor if he doesn't move on his own.

[emoji106]


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[Thomas H]

4 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

When it's time to move tell the competitor if he doesn't move on his own.

 

Agreed.

 

(I too didn't understand the penalty for shooting "wrongly" in Showdown, given the RO's job on that stage.  I'll also note that the minute the RO once tells a competitor to move after the third string, anyone else has a basis for an arb if they get a penalty for not moving, because the RO gave help to one competitor but not another.  Overall, I agree that if the competitor is in the wrong box, they shouldn't be started.  If they are started, then it it a reshoot, just like any other time a competitor is started in the wrong position.  So I'm glad to see that Troy and Zach think the same on this topic.)

[Racinready300ex]

On 5/19/2018 at 8:40 AM, Nimitz said:

Zack:   the central issue is NOT how we record it in Practiscore .... there is no difference between a 'DNF" or a 'DQ" except that in the former you get to see whatever scores you shot  when the final results are posted.   It does not address the central issue which is - eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules - is inappropriate, grossly unfair and not in accordance with our other rules ...

 

The thing your missing is you are DQ'd not the gun. You committed the safety violation not the gun. So you are done for the entire event because you were unsafe. I think the rules are consistent and make sense as they are.

 

[zzt]

Well, I don't take this (5.3.1 “Make ready” Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer, the competitor must face down range and prepare their firearm. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed) to mean that the RO cannot start the shooter if they are in the wrong box.  They are in the correct start position, just in the wrong box.

 

Especially when this is read.  5.2.4 A competitor not in the proper start position at the start signal will incur penalties. This includes competitors shooting the improper number of strings from the shooting boxes on Showdown. Competitors are required to shoot three strings from one box and two strings from the other shot in any combination. Failure to move between boxes after three strings have been shot from one shooting box shall incur 1 procedural penalty, per string, for each string shot in the wrong box. It is acceptable to shoot in the 2-2-1 shooting order if the competitor so chooses; however, 3/2 or 2/3 are acceptable sequences as well. See Section 7 for penalty information.  So, obviously the RO can start a shooter standing in the wrong box.  Otherwise, why would this rule specifically mention the penalty for not moving.

 

Last year, when I was not allowed to coach, I assigned procedurals when people did not move on Showdown.  This year it hasn't come up yet, but if it does, I'll tell them to move (Level 1).  If I'm the RO, I'll also coach when necessary.  Reminding a newish rimfire shooter to change mags after a string not only improves their experience, it also reduces the risk of DQ when they frantically reach for a new mag under pressure.

[mosher]

An RO should not start a competitor in the wrong start position. If they hands are down or they standing in the wrong start position on a field course in uspsa, we don't give them a start signal and then penalize later, we say he dude feet on XXs or hey dude hands above shoulders.  Any RO that starts a competitor in the wrong box and then penalizes the competitor for it is a dickhead.

 

 

 

 

[Hammer002]

5 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 

I thought about something that happened at WSSC last year. A competitor and RO failed to move after 3 strings and competitor shot 4th string from the first box. The RM (Troy McManus) was called to the stage. The decision was made for the 4th string to be thrown out. Have the competitor move, without penalty, and shoot his last two strings from the proper box. So if the highest rule authority in the land isn't assessing penalties that tells me it's on the RO to make sure the competitor is in the right box. I'll see if we can get things clarified in the rules. When in doubt I refer to Troy's #1 Rule for RO's and that's "Don't be a prick." When it's time to move tell the competitor if he doesn't move on his own.

 

Thank you Zack.  I hope the writing gets some attention and love Troys #1 rule.

 

4 hours ago, zzt said:

5.3.1 The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed

 

5.2.4 A competitor not in the proper start position at the start signal will incur penalties.

 

Are ya startin to get the picture?  You copy and pasted it yourself, however did not read it to see the contradiction being discussed.  After 3 strings from one box in Showdown, that box is no longer a proper starting position.  So, not quite so “obvious” unless you are imposing your personal “take” on things using only what parts you want to hear, and no one has time for that.  Sorry to sound like a dick, but I get so tired of people adding their personal opinions, or “takes” to the rules and causing confusion and conflict.  

 

‘“THEY ARE IN THE CORRECT START POSITION, JUST THE WRONG BOX.”  In what world does this make sense??  If in the wrong box, they are not in the correct start position.

 

Look, I know it’s currently a poorly written rule contradiction, and Zack explained it perfectly how it should be handled.  No competitor in anything uspsa may be started by the RO in any type of stage without the competitor in the correct position. If it happens, that is the fault of the RO and it’s a reshoot.  After shooting three times from one showdown box, that position is no longer a valid starting position.  No more than you as an RO could start someone in the wrong box of Outer Limits and impose penalty (and no one wants to further discuss the handicapped start, that’s not the point here, lol ). Assuring the proper start position is the ROs responsibility in every aspect of uspsa.  Shooter starts with hands at sides for El Prez, that’s a reshoot and the ROs fault.  Failure to comply with the WSB can only happen AFTER the timer starts the competitor in the proper starting position.

 

Anything otherwise violates my new favorite rule.....”Don’t be a prick.”

Edited May 23, 2018 by Hammer002

[ZackJones]

I'm going to make "Time to move." an optional command like "prepare for your next string."