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Target focus, front sight focus, and....something in between?


jmac2112

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Hi,

 

I've been lurking for a while and trying to absorb as much info as I can, but I'm finally ready to ask a question.   As a little background, I have been shooting off and on since I was 8, but I've only gotten serious about it in the last 2 years.  I recently joined a range where they host lots of matches (Peacemaker National Training Center), and so far I've shot two matches (didn't do great, but didn't embarrass myself either). 

 

My question is about focusing on the front sight.   Or maybe not.   Here's my problem: I'm 48 years old, and I wear bifocals for general use and computer glasses for (wait for it....) using a computer.  I'm right-eye dominant, and my eye doctor has never mentioned anything weird about my vision; astigmatism is my biggest problem, and is really my ONLY problem for distance vision.   I've also been using my computer glasses for shooting, since the bifocals are not at ALL good for shooting; the only range I CAN'T see with my bifocals is the range where my sights are.   WITH the computer glasses, I can see the front sight crystal clear, while the target is blurry but not so blurry I can't find it.  (I'm having shooting glasses made right now which will move the focal point out to the front sight instead of starting at 18" like my computer glasses).   Anyway, when I'm shooting with these glasses on I can achieve three types of focus: 1) target "focus," using the term loosely, since it's still pretty blurry, and with this kind of focus the sights are too blurry to be of much use; 2) what I'd call a "hard" front sight focus, where both eyes converge totally on the front sight, which is razor sharp, but the problem is the rear sight all but disappears, so I can't line up the sights at all; and 3) something in between, where the front sight is still sharp, though maybe a little "softer," and I can see the rear sights pretty well; the target is blurry but I can easily find center mass.


So, am I the only one who experiences this?  I'm I just doing it all wrong?  I never see it mentioned in books or video's when people are discussing front sight focus.  The only place I've found something similar is on this site.   I ran across this post by Jschuberg from five years ago (excerpted from here: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/180369-front-sight-focus-i-dont-get-it/?page=4)

 

Lets say you have 2 targets - A and B. You start with target A. Your binocular convergence should be on the target, meaning there should be one of them. Your optical focus should be on the front sight - it should be crisp and clear, but there will be 2 transparent front sights.

You take your shot.

You should now move your optical focus outward and move your eyes to target B. At this point both your bincoular convergence and optical focus are are the target. Your eyes should lock onto your intended POI.

You should now bring your pistol to target B where your eyes are looking. At the same time you should pull your focus back to the front sight. However, your point of optical convergence should remain on the target.

You take your shot.

 

I THINK he (she?) is talking about the same thing I am, but I'm not really sure.  I'm just throwing this out there in case it sheds light on my problem.   I do get the feeling that when I am using my "softer focus" my eyes are maintaining this sort of binocular convergence on the target while my right eye is focused on the front sight.  I'm really not sure what my left eye is doing. 

 

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this!

 

John 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, jmac2112 said:

(I'm having shooting glasses made right now which will move the focal point out to the front sight instead of starting at 18" like my computer glasses)

 

I wouldn't worry much about it until you get and try the new shooting glasses. I know nothing about what can be done to mitigate your problem, but if it ends up being not physically possible for your eyes to call shots with iron sights you might consider switching to open or carry optics. It seems like a dot would be much more vision friendly to your particular situation.

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I assume you’re shooting outside. If anyone reading this kind of thread struggles with vision and is shooting indoor matches? Stop now and try a single outdoor match. Even if it means a 2 hour drive on the weekend, I can’t stress enough how much of a handicap there is shooting indoors.

 

Second, you repeatedly mention binocular vision being a factor. Have you experimented with closing one eye? Or applying scotch tape to one lens? BOTH EYES MUST BE OPEN is dogma that isn’t always true.

 

Just like we routinely violate “you have to focus on the front sight” dogma in action sports, you just need to see what YOU need to do the task at hand. Squinting or closing an eye is preferable to losing track of the gun every time you find the next target when it comes to shooting fast stage times!

 

I’m closing in on M class and still apply a very thin smear of chapstick on my nondominant lens. It helps me immensiely with shooting both eyes open: I have nearly equal eye dominance, and they end up fighting for superiority sometimes. 

 

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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I don't know if this helps but here goes. I am nearsighted and 60 years old. Trying to shoot iron sights on my rifles and pistols has become more difficult time because of the front sight focus/target blurry mantra. So, I tried a new prescription where my right eye, my dominant eye, is focused on the front sight post. But my open left eye is corrected for nearsightedness. When I first put the glasses on it takes a minute for my brain to absorb what's going on but it does clear up and as long as I shoot both eyes open perhaps squinting my right eye I do quite well. YMMV.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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Thanks to all who have replied so far!  

 

Jake Da Vita:  I hope the new glasses help, but then again they will not be radically different from my computer glasses.  I'll just have to wait and see (pun intended).

 

MemphisMechanic:  I always shoot outdoors, but I dryfire in my garage.  I have noticed that the "problem" is not as bad when I'm outside, but it is certainly an issue there as well.  I am not totally opposed to the red dot sight, although at the moment my wallet is very much opposed.  

 

boss281: I've done a little experimenting by wearing two pairs of glasses in sort of an X shape so that it approximates what you are talking about.  It does seem to work OK, but I can see that it would take some getting used to.

 

 

I should clarify that this will only be a PROBLEM for me if it turns out that the "hard" focus on the front sight that I mentioned is the only way for me to get the results that people talk about when they talk about front sight focus.  The "soft" focus seems to work pretty well, but I don't want to handicap myself if there is something better.  

 

Thanks again for the replies!

 

John

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I’ve had that problem before I got my new prescription shooting glasses. Since I had been prescribed with 1.75 readers, I had difficulties with front sight/rear sight and target focus. With my readers, the sights are clear but the target is very blurry. Without the readers, the sights are very blurry but the target is very clear.

 

So I went back to my optometrist and she did more tests. What she did was had me extend my arms and placed the letters and had me read them to find out the best lens magnification to use for my dominant eye. She did this to enable me to see the letters clearly at the distance where the sights are going to be. After the tests, she prescribed 1.00 for my dominant eye and no magnification for my left eye to see distant objects. So far so good. The adjustment was quite easy for me.

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Di Vita!  Sorry about that!  Yes, let's blame it on the eyes!?

 

Gerorge16:  I might end up going a similar route if this doesn't pan out for me.  Thanks for the input!

 

 

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i to super from weak genes in the eye department,bifocals early in life,what has worked superb for me is my new rudy projects,dominant eye set to see front site perfectly then backed off a tiny amount,other eye set for distance ,pick up that front sight and aim for the center of whatever target im hitting ,paper or steel,couldnt be happier!

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When I was shooting iron sights (ten years ago), I got my optometrist to

Rx an intermediate lens - for about 3-5 feet in front of me - the front

sight was still sharp and the target was a little blurry - but good compromise.

 

Many people here, with the same problem, have different Rx's for each eye -

dominant eye is focused on the front sight and the non-dominant eye focused

on distance.

 

I've never tried that, but it sounds like it has merit.

 

Good luck with it   :) 

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I've used what Jack describes, right - dominant - set up for focus at front sight and left eye with normal distance prescription.  Have used this setup for open sight pistol shooting since the mid 80s (several prescription changes along the way).  Works great for me and have no problem with this setup.  

 

Some people can't seem to adjust to this procedure and from what I'm told,  there is no way to tell if it will work for you without trying it.

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25 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

I've used what Jack describes, right - dominant - set up for focus at front sight and left eye with normal distance prescription.  Have used this setup for open sight pistol shooting since the mid 80s (several prescription changes along the way).  Works great for me and have no problem with this setup.  

 

Some people can't seem to adjust to this procedure and from what I'm told,  there is no way to tell if it will work for you without trying it.

 

A couple of my friends tried it after I told them what I had been prescribed but they didn’t liked it. They said they got dizzy and had double vision because of the dissimilar magnification of the lenses. Both had since been using bifocals on top of the lens.

 

Like you, I didn’t have any problems adjusting to it. In fact, I like it very much because it’s the best of both worlds. I can see clearly up close and at a distance. 1.0 on dominant eye and zero on non-dominant eye.

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I mentioned earlier that I am in the process of getting some shooting glasses.  The eye doc messed up the first go-round, so I'm going in for a recheck next week, and we'll try again.  My thought has been to have both lenses the same, with the focal point starting at the front sight and moving outward.  I think what I'll do when I go back for the recheck is to ask them to make me a third lens as well, so that I can see distance with my left (non-dominant) eye.  That way I can experiment by switching out the left lens to see what works best.  

 

John

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Also, I wanted to clarify what I see when I'm focusing hard on the front sight.  Because I have the sights lined up with my right eye, I'm seeing the front sight at an angle when I focus on it hard with both eyes.  In other words, I don't see the sight post squarely from the rear, but instead I see along the left side of the sight post.  I assume that must be normal, since the only way to see ONLY the square face of the sight post would be to line up the sights with the bridge of your nose.  Right?

 

Thanks,

 

John

 

 

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I THINK I know what you are experiencing.  When I use my special prescription, and just relax and keep both eyes open, my sight alignment and picture goes haywire because my brain is focusing right eye on the front sight, and left eye on the target--it doesn't know where to settle, and with the two different prescriptions for each eye, they are ping ponging back and forth trying to pick one or the other.  So, at the range, just bench shooting, I wear the glasses for about 5-10 minutes before I shoot, load some magazines, just go about my business so I forget I'm wearing a funky prescription set.  When I shoot, I admit I squint just a bit, not hard, to get my brain to think right eye.  the left eye is open just enough to give me a picture of the bullseye.  I shoot fine.

 

In run and gun (USPSA), my brain doesn't get fooled at all.  I am wearing these glasses the minute I leave the car, and by the time I'm shooting, it's almost like I have perfect 20/20 again.  It has finally started working so well I'll have a special set of prescription shooting glasses made (the set I have are "fashion" framed).

 

YMMV, of course...

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I sent my prescription to Oakleysi.com and they made my prescription shooting glasses for me. You can chose any style or color of lens you want for your glasses. I chose the half jacket 2.0 XL polarized amber (Rex lenses) for shooting and an extra pair of polarized gray non Rex lenses for daily wear.

 

you can also try these bifocal glasses from SSP. It comes in threee pairs with one of the lenses plano( no magnification).

 

SSPeyewear

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I'm not sure this is going to be helpful. I'm 60 years old and have been wearing glasses since 8th grade. Normally I wear traditional bi-focals with lines but those truly suck for shooting.

 

I have a pair of progressive lens glasses, they are basically tri-focals with no lines. Got these at the Walmart vision center of about $100.00 bucks. Been using them for a few years now and they are ok. For the last 2 years I have been using a dot sight but since January have been also shooting iron sight. Outdoors fine but Indoors is a fiasco, I'm not sure it's the glasses or eye conditions or the lighting. Also I use FA front sights and red is the color that works best for me. I'm going to try red indoors prolly this week and see if it helps.

 

When I'm going shooting I put the progressives on about an hour before I start. It takes a while for my eyes to get used to them. Readers really blur the target so I don't personally care for them.

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If you use the two different lenses, as described above, I've found it best to put them on in the morning when you get up and then you are fully acclimatized to them when you finally get to the range or match.

Edited by Steve RA
letter left out
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at first i needed time for my eyes to adjust but now 5 minutes in good to go,at first it feels weird but like previously stated dont think about weird press,just put them on unloaded gear and get prepared,by the time thats done im golden

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  • 7 months later...

Just an update:  What I've ended up doing is using just the "computer glasses" lens for my right eye (dominant eye) and no lens at all for my left eye (wearing hardware store safety glasses over it).  I can see well enough at a distance without glasses, so this works OK.  I tried using my regular distance prescription lens for my left eye, but I really had a hard time getting used to the different magnifications.  My next step, one of these days, will be to get an "astigmatism-only" lens for my left eye, i.e. without any magnification, since astigmatism is by far my biggest problem as far as distance vision goes.  It would be nice to be able to see a little better at a distance, although I don't know how much of a difference it will make in my shooting.  In any case, I'm pretty satisfied with my current setup.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm right handed and VERY strong left eye dominant - to the point where my right eye is generally, in day to day use, only used for peripheral vision.  I wear progressive lens glasses all the time, from the minute I get up in the morning until the minute I go to bed at night.  They suck for shooting, I have to tilt my head back to see the front sight clearly!  So I took my gun to my eye doc and had him measure the exact distance from my eye to the front sight.  I had a pair of glasses made where the left lens is set to make the front sight crystal clear - the target at anything beyond 5+ yds is a blur.  The right lens is set for distance.  This made a major difference in my shooting.  Before I draw, I make sure I'm only using my left eye and that the target is blurry.  This is a conscious decision since my brain wants to see the target clearly and therefore wants to switch to my right eye.  But by making myself look at the target with my left eye, even though it's blurry, when I draw the pistol, the front sight is clear and my first shot is faster and more accurate.  As I transition from target to target, I have to force my self to keep my left eye focused on the front sight rather than "switching" to my right eye to see the target.  But, if I can do that, my scores go up!  Dry firing with long transitions helps a lot!!!

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Thanks for the input, mvmojo!  I have tried a few things and have settled on using a close-focused lens (basically "computer glasses") for my right eye and no lens at all for the left.  I don't like using both lenses for that pair of glasses because then the targets are very blurry.  My distance vision is good enough to see the targets without vision correction, so this setup works pretty well for me.  Astigmatism is my main problem when it comes to distance, and it makes everything a little fuzzy.  My bifocal prescription has some magnification for distance, and when I tried using that lens for my left eye along with the "computer glass" lens for my right eye, it seemed very awkward due to the different magnification.  At some point I will probably get a pair of glasses that correct for astigmatism only, and then I'll try using that for my left eye paired with the computer glasses lens for the right.  

 

Or maybe I'll throw up my hands and get a dot....

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