Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!
Sign in to follow this  
BillChunn

Practiscore - Getting the WSB on the tablet - Is this Possible?

Recommended Posts

We just transitioned to Fire Tablet 7's and when we select a classifier as a stage in the match, the Written Stage Briefing (WSB) can be displayed on the tablet.  Makes it VERY easy to make sure it is read consistently by the Range Officers.

 

Is it possible to put the WSB for non-classifier, independently designed stages onto the tablet?  That would be one less piece of paper that has to be printed, laminated (to survive the weather) and remain on the stage throughout the match.

 

Regards,

BC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is at the bottom of the stage editing screen. Type away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Thanks!!

 

Is the WSB entered on the PractiScore website or on the Master device?  Sorry, don't have the iPad here with me at the moment.  We use that as the master device and push all the data to the Fire 7's.

 

BC

 

 

Edited by BillChunn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't have to use ipad asa master... just saying. But yes, you can type your briefing on either ios or Android.

 

If you are importing match with pin# to Android device, then stages added on the web site are imported (first import only) and stage descriptions entered on the web site are loaded into stage briefing - you just have to edit targets/penalties and scoring type.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, euxx said:

You don't have to use ipad asa master... just saying. But yes, you can type your briefing on either ios or Android.

 

If you are importing match with pin# to Android device, then stages added on the web site are imported (first import only) and stage descriptions entered on the web site are loaded into stage briefing - you just have to edit targets/penalties and scoring type.

Thank you Sir!!

 

Appreciate the quick feedback.

 

BC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I toyed with this idea but realized that it just wouldn’t be optimal as everyone and their brother seems to like to get their time reviewing the stage brief individually. I’ve gone almost entirely paperless at this point and felt that it would be more painful than it was worth to do this with the stage briefing and wsb. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Given the current rules, I would say no.   On the tablet would satisfy 3.2.2 thru 3.2.5, but I suspect it would not satisfy 3.2.1.

.
Written Stage Briefings:
3.2.1
A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted
at
each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This brief
ing
will take precedence over any course of fire information published or
otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it
must provide the following minimum information:
Scoring Method:
Targets (type & number):
Minimum number of rounds:
The handgun ready condition:
Start position:
Time
starts: audible or visual signal:
Procedure:
3.2.2
The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out the writ
ten
stage briefing verbatim to each squad.
3.2.3
The Range Master may modify a written stage briefing at any time for
reasons of cl
arity, consistency or safety (see Section 2.3).
3.2.4
After the written stage briefing has been read to competitors
, and
any
questions about the course of fire
have been answ
ered, competitors
should be per
mitted to conduct an orderly inspection (“walkthrough”) of
the course of fire. The duration of time for the inspection must be
stipulated by the Range Officer, and it should be the same for all
competitors. If the course of fire includes moving targets or similar items,
these should be demonstra
ted to all competitors for the same duration and
frequency.
3.2.5
A written stage briefing must comply with the current USPSA rules.
 
 
 

 

 
Edited by open17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

I toyed with this idea but realized that it just wouldn’t be optimal as everyone and their brother seems to like to get their time reviewing the stage brief individually. I’ve gone almost entirely paperless at this point and felt that it would be more painful than it was worth to do this with the stage briefing and wsb. 

Ok, that point is understood.  How about handing them the tablet displaying the WSB?  Just trying to cut down on additional printing and chasing the paper across the range due to the wind.  We have very high berms (65 feet) and they tend to act as reverse chimneys, pulling wind down to the range floor.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, open17 said:

Given the current rules, I would say no.   On the tablet would satisfy 3.2 thru 3.5, but I suspect it would not satisfy 3.1.

I politely disagree sighting the evidence that the Classifier WSB's are on the tablets.  It does satisfy 3.1 as the Range Master posted the WSB on the tablets, all of them, every stage on every tablet.  So if the tablet is stationary (remains on the stage) or traveling (with the squad) the WSB for each stage is posted on the tablet used to score that stage.
 
Granted it has to meet 3.2.1 and contain all the required information but no where in the rules does it state the media for the WSB.
 
BC
 
 
 
 

 

Edited by BillChunn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BillChunn said:

Granted it has to meet 3.2.1 and contain all the required information but no where in the rules does it state the media for the WSB

 

You may be correct--I'm not sure.   I guess  I have never seen a club match where the tablets were on the stages before the match started.

Around here the tablets get to the stages after the squads are put in, just before the shooting starts.   That's at least an hour after people start checking out the stages.   Maybe the question should be--"When does the match start"?  The WSB's need to be on the stages before that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may be in the minority here...
But I would prefer to have a paper hard copy...
Here are my reasons:
1. Weather— protect the tablet as much as possible
2. Battery life— depending on the tablet this could affect its life during the match.
3. RM changes to the WSB.. this becomes more difficult with the electronic version... is there a change log on the tablet?
4. RO readability- it may be harder to read it on the tablet.. sun light, font size...
5. Competitors handling the tablet at a major. I don’t want to have this happen. What could go wrong right?


Just a few reasons...

And yes I get why there are reasons for it on the tablet... just don’t think it is a good idea...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, RadarTech said:

I may be in the minority here...
But I would prefer to have a paper hard copy...
Here are my reasons:

 

I wonder if you've tried it or just speculating?

 

Most if not all of your reasons can be used to favor electronic briefing. Just for the giggles...

 

10 hours ago, RadarTech said:

1. Weather— protect the tablet as much as possible

 

Those tablets already protected to be used during scoring process. That's what those protective cases or even zip locks are for... Unless you are still using Nooks, then it sucks. :)

 

Besides, when someone need to look at WSB - tablet can sit on the RO table under RO tent or shed. And briefing stapled to the wall on the stage won't be lost next day after a storm or heavy rain/wind.

 

Also, when stages are posted online - competitors can browse them on their own devices. In matchbook app or directly on the match registration site when PractiScore registration site is used; or in PractiScore Competitor app when they are posted with the match results (or synced from a match wifi).

 

Then if you like paper copy - you can print it yourself. Many major matches are rolling like that anyways - Florida Open, USPSA Nationals for at least few years now... Admittedly FLOP been posting paper briefing at the stages and still avoiding posting electronic ones with the match results.

 

10 hours ago, RadarTech said:

2. Battery life— depending on the tablet this could affect its life during the match.

 

While tablet is on RO table during walk trough it can be plugged in to external battery. But then it doesn't need to have its screen turned on - only when people actually need to look at it.

 

For the same reason, RO doesn't need to keep tablet screen on at the "load and make ready" command (unless they are doing hot scoring). It''s sufficient to turn it on when shooter is about to finish stage and he'll need to enter time.

 

10 hours ago, RadarTech said:

3. RM changes to the WSB.. this becomes more difficult with the electronic version... is there a change log on the tablet?

 

On a contrary. It makes it easier to update all tablets. Just change it on a master device and sync. Don't need to find and scribble on all laminated copies...

See my note below on making match secure if you are concerned about match changes.

 

10 hours ago, RadarTech said:

4. RO readability- it may be harder to read it on the tablet.. sun light, font size...

 

Currently it is about 2x of a regular book font size. So far no one complained about font sizes, but I can easily crank it up 2x more... Here is a 7" tablet similar to ones they are using in Florida.

 

IMG_20180514_185420.thumb.jpg.b15e05d2157ac9c0723f5ef0a32816cb.jpg

 

10 hours ago, RadarTech said:

5. Competitors handling the tablet at a major. I don’t want to have this happen. What could go wrong right?

 

 

If major is not posting results online or not enabling use of the matchbook app, perhaps they do deserve using paper. :)

 

But then again, you should enable match security to make sure only stats or RM can make changes in match, stage or competitor's data.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
If major is not posting results online or not enabling use of the matchbook app, perhaps they do deserve using paper.
 
But then again, you should enable match security to make sure only stats or RM can make changes in match, stage or competitor's data.
 
 
 
 

I get it. I really do...
I see all your points to use everything PractiScore.. and I like it...



But many ranges around here don’t have power in the bays... and still use nooks

This weekend I had 5 different long term competitors tell me they couldn’t figure out the registration for a major and on a squad of 9 we had only 3 people that could score on the tablet.

Over time all those that are not computer/tablet literate will be out of the sport.

Until then, we have to realize we are an entertainment industry and if shooters want paper briefings we as highly tech savvy need to realize we can’t program our way out of it. In your plan what do you tell that competitor that can’t get the WSB on their flip phone?
Or can’t read without special glasses?


Customer service is what makes a large part of a major match work.

I don’t like a competitor handling the scoring tablet at a major.. period... you may have missed a minor issue in our area with a problem with that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, RadarTech said:

I don’t like a competitor handling the scoring tablet at a major.. period... you may have missed a minor issue in our area with a problem with that...
 

 

Agreed... 

 

We had a problem with that, too...  We now limit tablet handling to match Range Officers at major events...  No exceptions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, RadarTech said:

...But many ranges around here don’t have power in the bays... and still use nooks

This weekend I had 5 different long term competitors tell me they couldn’t figure out the registration for a major and on a squad of 9 we had only 3 people that could score on the tablet.

 

That highlighted part could be a problem. Just saying...

 

Quote

Over time all those that are not computer/tablet literate will be out of the sport.

 

Or maybe over time someone will teach them how to use new gear... It isn't that hard, if my 65/yo mom could do it, they can do it too.

 

Quote


Until then, we have to realize we are an entertainment industry and if shooters want paper briefings we as highly tech savvy need to realize we can’t program our way out of it. In your plan what do you tell that competitor that can’t get the WSB on their flip phone?
Or can’t read without special glasses?

 

It's not like it is a new problem... We've been dealing with all kind of disabilities in computer software for couple decades now. It only takes someone to try it and do it right.

 

Quote

I don’t like a competitor handling the scoring tablet at a major.. period... you may have missed a minor issue in our area with a problem with that...

 

Actually I might have investigated that issue upon request...

 

But then it doesn't have to be scoring tablet. Amazon Fire tablets are really cheap. You can get 2nd set of them for the major match for the cost of 2..3 registration fees and have them at the stages running the matchbook app for competitors to look at.

 

Edited by euxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

That highlighted part could be a problem. Just saying...

 

 

Or maybe over time someone will teach them how to use new gear... It isn't that hard, if my 65/yo mom could do it, they can do it too.

 

 

It's not like it is a new problem... We've been dealing with all kind of disabilities in computer software for couple decades now. It only takes someone to try it and do it right.

 

 

Actually I might have investigated that issue upon request...

 

But then it doesn't have to be scoring tablet. Amazon Fire tablets are really cheap. You can get 2nd set of them for the major match for the cost of 2..3 registration fees and have them at the stages running the matchbook app for competitors to look at.

 

I get it..

Like I said before.

 

BUT you have people that will NEVER learn and NEVER WANT to learn...

That won't change..

We have a volunteer sport, and some people only want to shoot... Some people won't even paste.. so getting them to learn to use the tablet is not gonna happen...

 

Instead of printing a WSB, your solution is to put a SECOND tablet on the stage for someone to mess with and have stats to monitor? 

How many stats guys want to have to handle another stage device and batteries etc?

Do you even understand how crazy that sounds? 

Printing an official copy is the way to go until tablets are indestructible in a kiosk mode that can't be messed with.

 

I am sure most competitors would rather we spend $900 to $1400 on prizes than 9 to 14 tablets and the protective covers.

Cheap is a matter of perspective.. I heard of a major recently that asked the RO's to not take their stipends.....

 

RO's would rather we spend that on a stipend, a staff dinner, hotel expenses etc..

 

for the cost of a single tablet I can print lots of copies of WSB and have a fresh copy every session or even squad!!

 

I totally get the teaching technology issues... I spend my days working with CIOs,  IT Directors and Managers to get the IT departments to understand things like BGP, OSPF, SD-WAN, IPv6, Stateful packet inspection and Deep packet inspection... or Wireless multipath distortion, frequency diversity in complex RF environments.  or even simple stuff like Spanning-Tree... YMMV.. but shooters MOSTLY careless about HOW the scoring works, they just want it to work...

And this creates the problems where we lose great stats people-- Like JC down in Ga... burnout..

Again this is a volunteer sport with no incentive to learn the tablet...

 

 

 

What I have to constantly defend against using technology:  there is a point that TOO much use and dependency on technology is a bad thing..

To go FULL electronic at a match, we need a complete Primary system and a full backup. Every device must have a backup, and in some cases a tertiary backup.

If we don't do this right, a match is ruined, a stage is tossed. all for the sake of what exactly?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder where $900 to $1400 number came from. With Amazon Fire - it is more like $300..500 for 10 tablets and you don't have those to have PractiScore app installed. Have Matchbook or Competitor app instead.

 

But then again, I am not trying to convince you or anyone. Just saying that the same arguments work the other way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wonder where $900 to $1400 number came from. With Amazon Fire - it is more like $300..500 for 10 tablets and you don't have those to have PractiScore app installed. Have Matchbook or Competitor app instead.
 
But then again, I am not trying to convince you or anyone. Just saying that the same arguments work the other way.



Add $40 or so for a battery pack and case
Then a case to put it in..
most folks have been adding $50 of extras to these things... and the extra charging cords etc....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2018 at 3:52 PM, RadarTech said:

YMMV.. but shooters MOSTLY careless about HOW the scoring works, they just want it to work.

And this creates the problems where we lose great stats people-- Like JC down in Ga... burnout..

Again this is a volunteer sport with no incentive to learn the tablet...

 

 

Agreed!

 

Most shooters don't want to know how electronic scoring works...  or take any responsibility for it...  and they certainly don't want to have to learn it or do it...   but they want it to work correctly and in a split second...  and they want to be able to sync match scores to countless PS Competitor devices during a match...  and after a match...  which most of the time we can do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, they also don't want to patch and reset steel... Yet here we are.

It is more of expectations and a mentality thing. Besides, no one is irreplaceable. Not JC. Not me. Others will come and sport will live.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IT is a we will charge more to pay people to paste since some won't do it...

That is when the cheap ones will start pasting...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, RadarTech said:

IT is a we will charge more to pay people to paste since some won't do it...

That is when the cheap ones will start pasting...

 

 

Pasting.... ahhhh yes... the dreaded scourge of all shooting sports.  I took a three year hiatus from USPSA when my march up through the classifications plateaued in "A" class.  Got frustrated, sold both my Open guns and started shooting NRA High Power - Service Rifle.  For the "Across the Course" matches where we shot from 200, 300 and 600 yards, the bullet holes in the target had to be marked so the person seated uprange next to the shooter could look through his spotting scope and record the score for that shot.  This involved lowering the target behind an earthworks berm, removing the "spotter" plug from the previous bullet hole, pasting it with the correct color paster (black or God-forbid white), moving the spotter plug to the new bullet hole and then possibly moving the scoring marker to a different location at the edge of the target, then hoisting it back into place.  This was done for each shot....  way too much fun....

 

At the NRA Highpower Nationals held at Camp Perry, there were four people assigned to a firing point, an individually numbered "lane" containing the target.  The shooter and the scorer were uprange and the other two were in the "butts" working the target.

 

A couple of ingenious guys decided they could make some money at these matches.  You could "hire" them to work the butts for you for the entire match.....the standard charge for a two day match was $50.00.  Maybe that will catch on for USPSA....  then again paying someone to paste one or two targets for a few stages might be asking too much. 

 

This has been done at certain matches.  At the Area 5 match a couple of years ago, the local Boy Scout troup received a large donation to paste all the targets.  Although the shooters didn't have to paste or reset steel, the donation came directly out of the prize table money..... some were not too happy about that aspect.

 

The gentleman in the first picture below is shooting at 200 yards in the "off-hand" (or as we called it awful hand) position.  One of the first things that you did when preparing a shot was to check your number board.  It's amazing that all the targets look identical when looking through the rifle sights... if you fired a shot on the wrong target, it was called a cross fire.  Your neighbor usually announced "I didn't fire" when his target went down so his scorer would not record that shot.  For perspective, the number boards at Perry are TWELVE feet tall....

 

The second picture is from 600 yards.  Everything gets smaller, especially the number boards.....

 

You got a zero for your cross fire..... Yeah... shot an "X" on the adjacent target, didn't check the number board.....

 

BC

CampPerry Targets.jpg

 

CampPerry Targets 600.jpg

Perry13.JPG

Edited by BillChunn
Pic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, euxx said:

Well, they also don't want to patch and reset steel... Yet here we are.

It is more of expectations and a mentality thing. Besides, no one is irreplaceable. Not JC. Not me. Others will come and sport will live.

 

We're just bellyaching, Eugene...  Besides...  At the end of the day, we all go to you when we get scoring problems we can't solve...  So, you can complain about us!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/17/2018 at 8:40 AM, BillChunn said:

 

Pasting.... ahhhh yes... the dreaded scourge of all shooting sports.  I took a three year hiatus from USPSA when my march up through the classifications plateaued in "A" class.  Got frustrated, sold both my Open guns and started shooting NRA High Power - Service Rifle.  For the "Across the Course" matches where we shot from 200, 300 and 600 yards, the bullet holes in the target had to be marked so the person seated uprange next to the shooter could look through his spotting scope and record the score for that shot.  This involved lowering the target behind an earthworks berm, removing the "spotter" plug from the previous bullet hole, pasting it with the correct color paster (black or God-forbid white), moving the spotter plug to the new bullet hole and then possibly moving the scoring marker to a different location at the edge of the target, then hoisting it back into place.  This was done for each shot....  way too much fun....

 

At the NRA Highpower Nationals held at Camp Perry, there were four people assigned to a firing point, an individually numbered "lane" containing the target.  The shooter and the scorer were uprange and the other two were in the "butts" working the target.

 

A couple of ingenious guys decided they could make some money at these matches.  You could "hire" them to work the butts for you for the entire match.....the standard charge for a two day match was $50.00.  Maybe that will catch on for USPSA....  then again paying someone to paste one or two targets for a few stages might be asking too much. 

 

This has been done at certain matches.  At the Area 5 match a couple of years ago, the local Boy Scout troup received a large donation to paste all the targets.  Although the shooters didn't have to paste or reset steel, the donation came directly out of the prize table money..... some were not too happy about that aspect.

 

The gentleman in the first picture below is shooting at 200 yards in the "off-hand" (or as we called it awful hand) position.  One of the first things that you did when preparing a shot was to check your number board.  It's amazing that all the targets look identical when looking through the rifle sights... if you fired a shot on the wrong target, it was called a cross fire.  Your neighbor usually announced "I didn't fire" when his target went down so his scorer would not record that shot.  For perspective, the number boards at Perry are TWELVE feet tall....

 

The second picture is from 600 yards.  Everything gets smaller, especially the number boards.....

 

You got a zero for your cross fire..... Yeah... shot an "X" on the adjacent target, didn't check the number board.....

 

BC

CampPerry Targets.jpg

 

CampPerry Targets 600.jpg

Perry13.JPG

AHHHH PULLING BUTTS!!!!

 

Such fond memories of this from the Rifle Ranges in the Marines... UBER COLD mornings in the BUTTS.. and uber HOT humid days under those concrete parapets...

Imagine pulling butts every day for a week solid!! Boot camp and then every year on active duty when you are not deployed....

 

While I have never shot NRA High-power or Service rifle it sounds alot like what we called the KD (Known Distance) Course.

200,300 and 500 yards- with 5 stages of fire-- 15 rounds in 20 min at the 200 slow fire(sitting, kneeling and offhand 5 rounds each)-- 10 rounds at 200 yard rapids fire 70 seconds Standing to Sitting (5 from each of 2 magazines)-- 5 rounds rounds slow fire (Sitting) at the 300 yard line-- 10 rounds rapid fire Standing to Prone in 70 seconds (much like the 200 and the easiest stage of the day-- 10 rounds prone from the prone position at the 500 yard line....

 

The difference I see is we used the B Mod Target and the Dog target  ...

What you are showing looks like the "able" target....

 

Anyway--- thanks for the walk down memory lane!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×