DQ’d. AD into a wall during transition

[theWacoKid]

2 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Throwing gun downrange

 

Already covered in rules as DQ.  Dropped gun.

[theWacoKid]

2 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

Or twirling the gun, finger in the trigger guard, ala John Wayne.

Also covered in the rules as DQ.  That's 180 and sweeping yourself.  Haha.

[Gary Stevens]

2 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

 

Already covered in rules as DQ.  Dropped gun.

 

Semantics. Shooter threw gun 20 yards or so down range. Resulted among other things,  expulsion from USPSA. 

 

Dropped gun to the 10th power.

[Shadyscott999]

IMO, you got screwed.  I can't see where that should be a DQ by any of the rules.  

[Shadyscott999]

• I look at the rules differently than many ROs.  I want to know what in the rules tells me that I am REQUIRED to DQ you for your action.  I don't look for a rule that fits my preconceived notion that you should be DQ'd.  

[IHAVEGAS]

34 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

• I look at the rules differently than many ROs.  I want to know what in the rules tells me that I am REQUIRED to DQ you for your action.  I don't look for a rule that fits my preconceived notion that you should be DQ'd.  

 

I don't know any r.o. that fits your description of most r.o.'s. 

[Shadyscott999]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I don't know any r.o. that fits your description of most r.o.'s. 

"Many" and "most"  are not the same word.  

[IHAVEGAS]

54 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

"Many" and "most"  are not the same word.  

 

Mea Culpa.

 

Don't know of anyone who is not just trying to do the best they can to keep things safe & according to the written rules. Honest differences in interpretation of what is written can be a bitch. 

[Frozen]

Ok, I looked at the definition of movement. I definitely did not take a step. 
 
It’s not quite as obvious as going from kneeling to standing, but Swinging the gun from one side of a wall to another side of the wall COULD be considered changing body position. 
 
As I mentioned in my original post, I have not been through an NROI class but I think I would’ve probably made this stop call if I were ROing me. It would’ve seemed to me that it was an obvious AD by regular standards (I pulled the trigger when I was not planning to) but from my research, it may not have been a DQ per the rules.
 
Either way, it still sucks but I’m learning.
 
I’m hoping to get to an NROI RO class in June.
ing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

I just fished my RO training, passed the test , it’s a eye opener,, if at all possible make that class in June. Good luck


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[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Throwing gun downrange

There've been times I wanted to throw a malfunctioning gun down range. Better to just throw it at a good gunsmith, with some money taped to it.

Edited May 13, 2018 by motosapiens

[teros135]

25 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

There've been times I wanted to throw a malfunctioning gun down range. Better to just throw it at a good gunsmith, with some money taped to it.

 

I'd call it a temper tantrum and apply 10.6.  Throwing a gun in a fit of pique would certainly bring the sport into disrepute.   Possibly even throwing mags in anger (for instance, because the gun kept jamming).  

[RaylanGivens]

14 hours ago, Sdlrodeo said:

in the 2104 handgun rules 

10.4 ...an accidental discharge is defined as follows:

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

 

 

Something to remember is that mesh walls, or walls that you can see through, do not fall under 10.4.6...  By definition, you can't see through a wall...  since you can't "see" through a mesh wall, you can't put your finger on the trigger while aiming at a target behind one.

 

This was covered by DNROI in a Front Sight article.

[BoyGlock]

Had a bit different experience. On the run approaching position, I aimed and shot a close target thru a mesh wall w/ one shot and instantly realized my error and re-engaged the target on the port w/ 2. In the heat of the run my vision disregarded the mesh! The front RO wanted to dq me but I appealed to the RM who ruled otherwise. 

[Janskis]

On 5/14/2018 at 3:35 AM, RaylanGivens said:

 

Something to remember is that mesh walls, or walls that you can see through, do not fall under 10.4.6...  By definition, you can't see through a wall...  since you can't "see" through a mesh wall, you can't put your finger on the trigger while aiming at a target behind one.

 

This was covered by DNROI in a Front Sight article.

Wrong. This has been covered in the official IPSC forum and there it has been ruled that if you can actually see the target, you can see the target as far as rules are concerned.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Janskis said:

Wrong. This has been covered in the official IPSC forum and there it has been ruled that if you can actually see the target, you can see the target as far as rules are concerned.

 

Another case where IPSC and USPSA rules differ? 

[Sdlrodeo]

Not arguing the source. 

However wouldn’t that make walls irrelevant given the stage direction to “shoot targets as they become visible”? If you can see them through walls ‘per the rules’ and you are directed to engage when they are visible I would argue mesh walls wouldn’t matter or all walls would have to be opaque. 

[Sdlrodeo]

On 5/14/2018 at 12:52 AM, BoyGlock said:

Had a bit different experience. On the run approaching position, I aimed and shot a close target thru a mesh wall w/ one shot and instantly realized my error and re-engaged the target on the port w/ 2. In the heat of the run my vision disregarded the mesh! The front RO wanted to dq me but I appealed to the RM who ruled otherwise. 

That seems reasonable. Since you were engaging a target. With Some of the “almost clear” wall material used with multiple ports configurations that I’ve seen I can totally understand your mind playing tricks. 

[teros135]

Walls are by definition impenetrable, as are all props and barriers, so any shots through them don't count.  

 

If you "can't see" the wall, perhaps your vision needs checking.  If your mind is "playing tricks" on you, perhaps this might interfere with ability to shoot safely.  If you just made a mistake, just take the penalty, learn from it, and move on.

 

Most people I've seen don't engage targets through walls, although we might clip the edge from time to time on close shots or leans. There's usually evidence on the target, and you get a mike. We live and learn.  

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by teros135

[ChuckS]

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”

[wgj3]

On 5/13/2018 at 12:34 PM, Shadyscott999 said:

• I look at the rules differently than many ROs.  I want to know what in the rules tells me that I am REQUIRED to DQ you for your action.  I don't look for a rule that fits my preconceived notion that you should be DQ'd.  

This is lost on so many RO's...

[wgj3]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”

Which is perfectly "legal" to engage...

[IHAVEGAS]

19 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

Which is perfectly "legal" to engage...

 

What point are you making here? I guess you could say you were engaging a wall or a berm or the ground anytime you are not engaging a target? 

[HoMiE]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

What point are you making here? I guess you could say you were engaging a wall or a berm or the ground anytime you are not engaging a target? 

Just because you shoot a wall or prop does not mean it’s an automatic AD. I have shot too soon coming into a position with gun up in direction of target, I have even shot low bringing gun up to a target. As long as it’s not 10’ or over the berm as previously stated your good, keep shooting target. Now as the OP has stated the gun fired as he pulled his arms in and transition to another port, I would say that was way too early and he know the shot was not intended or expected. 

[Sdlrodeo]

9 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Just because you shoot a wall or prop does not mean it’s an automatic AD. I have shot too soon coming into a position with gun up in direction of target, I have even shot low bringing gun up to a target. As long as it’s not 10’ or over the berm as previously stated your good, keep shooting target. Now as the OP has stated the gun fired as he pulled his arms in and transition to another port, I would say that was way too early and he know the shot was not intended or expected. 

 

Correct. I agree that mine was an AD. 

 

The whole point of the conversation was to discuss shooting walls and when it is too close to call an AD. 

[IHAVEGAS]

27 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Just because you shoot a wall or prop does not mean it’s an automatic AD.

 

Agreed, I was trying to figure out what wgj3 meant by "engaging" hard cover.