DQ’d. AD into a wall during transition

[Sdlrodeo]

Ok, here goes...

 

It happened to me. I’m trying to learn from it. Snarkyness neither intended nor invited. 

 

Scenario:

SC State this past weekend. Stage 5. Start with toes touching fault line (in or out) draw to an Open target to the right of a 4’ wall about 1.5’ in front of the shooter. Transition to a port to the left of the shooting position. 

 

Beep. Bang bang (bang wall) bang bang through port. Stop. 

 

I gave a very brief, unenthusiastic, almost tongue in cheek statement that I was aiming at a target. I did not really argue as I would have DQ’d me if I were the RO. There was a nice bullet hole right thru the landscape cloth. 

 

However on on the long ride home I gave it Some thought. While my particular incident was obvious, Walls DO get shot a lot in USPSA and do not usually end up in a DQ. A mike maybe due to a hit on hard cover maybe, but not usually a DQ. 

 

here are my questions:

1. when is it ok/not ok to shoot a wall?

2. How far does the wall need to be from the shooter?

3. how close to the wall do the targets need to be in order to be “aimed at”?

4. How far ‘into’ the wall (from the edge of he wall) is acceptable to hit without a DQ?

 

note: I’m currently looking in the rule book. 

 

go...

Edited May 8, 2018 by Sdlrodeo

[Sarge]

If I could tell you could not actually see a target yet I would issue DQ too. You can’t be actively engaging a target you can’t yet see.

[davsco]

so this was a wall you couldn't see through or around from where you fired the shots (if so, unsafe gun handing [including but not limited to...] for breaking one of coopers rules, know your target and what's behind),?  were you moving (if so, failure to keep finger outside trigger guard)?  not that your intentions really matter, but what happened?

[EEH]

 

I did not really argue as Iwould have DQ’d me if I were the RO. There was a nice bullet hole right thru the landscape cloth. 

 

 

You said you would have issued a DQ also,,so what if you had DQed a shooter like you said..?

 

What rule would have written on his score sheet ?

 

[Sdlrodeo]

35 minutes ago, davsco said:

so this was a wall you couldn't see through or around from where you fired the shots (if so, unsafe gun handing [including but not limited to...] for breaking one of coopers rules, know your target and what's behind),?  were you moving (if so, failure to keep finger outside trigger guard)?  not that your intentions really matter, but what happened?

 

Basically I swung my gun from a target on the right to a target on the left. There was a wall in between. I believe I brought the gun back in towards me just slightly (to avoid hitting the wall) and when I did I squeezed off a round. Happened to be almost dead center of the wall. I may have moved one foot a bit. But I did not hange shooting positions. 

[Sdlrodeo]

25 minutes ago, EEH said:

 

I did not really argue as Iwould have DQ’d me if I were the RO. There was a nice bullet hole right thru the landscape cloth. 

 

 

You said you would have issued a DQ also,,so what if you had DQed a shooter like you said..?

 

What rule would have written on his score sheet ?

 

 

Mom currently using WiFi on an airplane and cannot look up the rules due to connectivity speeds. 

 

I don’t know what exact rule it would go under. But it was an AD. 

 

I know that walls are shot often. Especially on the edges when in front of a target. 

 

Say a wall is 5’ in front of a shooter partially covering a target and the shooter hits the wall on the EDGE while transitioning (swinging thru) from another target. I don’t think anyone would DQ. A hard cover mike yeah if he didn’t make it up. But What if he hits the wall 3” from the edge?

12”?

2 feet?

 

still waiting for the rules to load. 

 

 

[Sdlrodeo]

52 minutes ago, Sarge said:

If I could tell you could not actually see a target yet I would issue DQ too. You can’t be actively engaging a target you can’t yet see.

 

Makes sense. What if I could see ‘a’ target in the vicinity? But I hit the wall 6” from the edge?

Edited May 8, 2018 by Sdlrodeo

[Sarge]

25 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

Makes sense. What if I could see ‘a’ target in the vicinity? But I hit the wall 6” from the edge?

Again, if I could clearly tell you can see it I and you had the gun up pointed towards it I would have given you a pass.

 But, this stuff generally happens in the blink of an eye so who knows exactly how it looked in your case.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Sdlrodeo said:

Snarkyness neither intended nor invited. 

 

Wow, really sucks the fun out of this thread.

 

 

 

Good to share this stuff I think. 

[davsco]

55 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Again, if I could clearly tell you can see it I and you had the gun up pointed towards it I would have given you a pass.

 But, this stuff generally happens in the blink of an eye so who knows exactly how it looked in your case.

not to get too picky, but if you couldn't tell if he could see it or not, isn't that when he gets a pass?  and if you could tell he couldn't see it, that's the dq?  basically i'm saying the onus is on the RO to call a DQ IF he sees the bad act.  RO's don't have to see a good(ish) act to not call a DQ, they have to see a bad act to call a DQ.

[theWacoKid]

DQ's for AD's are very specifically defined in the rule book.  If you fire a shot during a simple transition it is not a DQ unless it goes over the berm or hits the ground within 10 feet of you (or would've hit the ground 10 feet from you if not hitting a prop).  The rule is very specific on this.  What rule did they cite for the DQ?  Basically you can't get DQ'd for firing a round while standing still unless it travels over the berm or lands within 10 ft.  Shooting through a wall isn't actually relevant as far as the rule book is concerned.  I only think you can't do that if it's intentional.

 

If there was movement (more than a step as defined) things change, but in my opinion a transition is the process of "shooting at targets" so there's a gray area if the round didn't clear the berm or hit the ground within 10 ft.  If you were strictly moving it doesn't matter where the AD goes, it's an AD while moving DQ.  Again, all spelled out clearly in the rule book in section 10.4.

Edited May 8, 2018 by theWacoKid

[Sdlrodeo]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Wow, really sucks the fun out of this thread.

 

 

 

Good to share this stuff I think. 

 

My wife calls me the fun killer once in a while. Perhaps deservedly so. 

[Sdlrodeo]

54 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

DQ's for AD's are very specifically defined in the rule book.  If you fire a shot during a simple transition it is not a DQ unless it goes over the berm or hits the ground within 10 feet of you (or would've hit the ground 10 feet from you if not hitting a prop).  The rule is very specific on this.  What rule did they cite for the DQ?  Basically you can't get DQ'd for firing a round while standing still unless it travels over the berm or lands within 10 ft.  Shooting through a wall isn't actually relevant as far as the rule book is concerned.  I only think you can't do that if it's intentional.

 

If there was movement (more than a step as defined) things change, but in my opinion a transition is the process of "shooting at targets" so there's a gray area if the round didn't clear the berm or hit the ground within 10 ft.  If you were strictly moving it doesn't matter where the AD goes, it's an AD while moving DQ.  Again, all spelled out clearly in the rule book in section 10.4.

 

Im going to look at more closely tonight. Just got home. WiFi on the plane was finicky. 

 

I was under the impression if it was an ad and hit a prop (wall) it was a DQ. 

 

They wrote “AD into wall during transition” on the score card. 

 

At the end of the day it’s over. This is discussion for IF it happens again with me or someone else. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Sdlrodeo

[motosapiens]

55 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

DQ's for AD's are very specifically defined in the rule book.  If you fire a shot during a simple transition it is not a DQ unless it goes over the berm or hits the ground within 10 feet of you (or would've hit the ground 10 feet from you if not hitting a prop).  The rule is very specific on this.  What rule did they cite for the DQ?  Basically you can't get DQ'd for firing a round while standing still unless it travels over the berm or lands within 10 ft.  Shooting through a wall isn't actually relevant as far as the rule book is concerned.  I only think you can't do that if it's intentional.

 

If there was movement (more than a step as defined) things change, but in my opinion a transition is the process of "shooting at targets" so there's a gray area if the round didn't clear the berm or hit the ground within 10 ft.  If you were strictly moving it doesn't matter where the AD goes, it's an AD while moving DQ.  Again, all spelled out clearly in the rule book in section 10.4.

 

I have to agree with this. The rules don't say anything about seeing targets, or even aiming at targets when standing still. At first glance it sounds like no dq under the rules even tho it is a bit unsafe.

 

Of course the dq rules are also very specifically NON-inclusive. I'd like to have an RMI give me examples of dq's that fell under the other unsafe gun-handling stuff.

Edited May 8, 2018 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

They wrote “AD into wall during transition” on the score card. 

 

 

sadly, there is no rule for that.

 

still, i think you did the right thing. You know you screwed up. even if you could get out of the dq on a technicality, it's probably better to suck it up and learn from it. I had a similar situation where a dq got called for an AD right after a reload (mag was back in the gun and I was rebuilding my grip when it went off). by rules, probably not a dq, but before I got far enough into arguing to get the RM over there I just decided to learn my lesson and help run the rest of the squad and be safer in the future.

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

Basically I swung my gun from a target on the right to a target on the left. There was a wall in between. I believe I brought the gun back in towards me just slightly (to avoid hitting the wall) and when I did I squeezed off a round.

 

1 hour ago, theWacoKid said:

 

If there was movement (more than a step as defined) things change, but in my opinion a transition is the process of "shooting at targets" so there's a gray area

 

"Changing body position" - maybe that only means the examples noted for 'movement' on page 59 or perhaps what he did qualifies, particularly because he thinks he pulled the gun back while swinging?? Dunno.

 

 

 

Really like 

33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

even if you could get out of the dq on a technicality, it's probably better to suck it up and learn from it.

 

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, davsco said:

not to get too picky, but if you couldn't tell if he could see it or not, isn't that when he gets a pass?  and if you could tell he couldn't see it, that's the dq?  basically i'm saying the onus is on the RO to call a DQ IF he sees the bad act.  RO's don't have to see a good(ish) act to not call a DQ, they have to see a bad act to call a DQ.

I guess so, yes. In a way.

[JOThompson]

I've done the same -- I am still embarrassed, but I learned my lesson and have not made that mistake again. 

[Matt1]

Why would people accept a DQ that isn’t covered by the rules?

Advocating for the rules to be correctly applied isn’t a bad thing unless you are a dick about it.

Lots of people think they know the rules in this game but are mistaken.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sdlrodeo]

So far I’ve come up with this:

 

in the 2104 handgun rules 

10.4 ...an accidental discharge is defined as follows:

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

 

So is transitioning (swinging the gun but not moving feet) from one target to another ‘movement’ ?

 

It may be there, but I’ve not been able to find a definition of ‘movement’ in the rules.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Sdlrodeo

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, Sdlrodeo said:

So far I’ve come up with this:

 

in the 2104 handgun rules 

10.4 ...an accidental discharge is defined as follows:

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets.

 

So is transitioning (swinging the gun but not moving feet) from one target to another ‘movement’ ?

 

It may be there, but I’ve not been able to find a definition of ‘movement’ in the rules.

Check out the glossary (A3)

[Sdlrodeo]

Ok, I looked at the definition of movement. I definitely did not take a step. 

 

It’s not quite as obvious as going from kneeling to standing, but Swinging the gun from one side of a wall to another side of the wall COULD be considered changing body position. 

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I have not been through an NROI class but I think I would’ve probably made this stop call if I were ROing me. It would’ve seemed to me that it was an obvious AD by regular standards (I pulled the trigger when I was not planning to) but from my research, it may not have been a DQ per the rules.

 

Either way, it still sucks but I’m learning.

 

I’m hoping to get to an NROI RO class in June.

ing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling,

from seated to standing etc.)

[Gary Stevens]

On 5/8/2018 at 6:17 PM, motosapiens said:

 

I have to agree with this. The rules don't say anything about seeing targets, or even aiming at targets when standing still. At first glance it sounds like no dq under the rules even tho it is a bit unsafe.

 

Of course the dq rules are also very specifically NON-inclusive. I'd like to have an RMI give me examples of dq's that fell under the other unsafe gun-handling stuff.

 

Throwing gun downrange

[GrumpyOne]

12 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Throwing gun downrange

Or twirling the gun, finger in the trigger guard, ala John Wayne.

[pvhendrix]

Quote

54 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Or twirling the gun, finger in the trigger guard, ala John Wayne.

I think that was the only time I ever saw Gary Stevens almost lose control!