PCC Handling Question

[RickT]

Understand you can "cart" your PCC around or carry muzzle up and store in a rifle rack (If available).  Transfer between case and cart prior to match start needs to be done at a safe table(?), but that being the case do you just leave the case on the ground next to the safe table?  I'm not seeing ranges that would technically allow such transfer in the parking area.  For those shooting either RFRI/O or PCCI/O what's your procedure.

[Trent1k1]

https://uspsa.org/viewer/PCC_Addendum.pdf has the rules.

 

What i have seen is at many ranges, the rifles are in cases until just before being used.

 

Most shooters aim thier carts ir cases towards a side berm.  They raise the weapon to muzzle up or down while facing the berm.  It wont go horizontal until the RO states Make Ready, and the Muzzle still  cant sweep anyone.

[ZackJones]

12 hours ago, RickT said:

Understand you can "cart" your PCC around or carry muzzle up and store in a rifle rack (If available).  Transfer between case and cart prior to match start needs to be done at a safe table(?), but that being the case do you just leave the case on the ground next to the safe table?  I'm not seeing ranges that would technically allow such transfer in the parking area.  For those shooting either RFRI/O or PCCI/O what's your procedure.

 

I leave my RFRI/O and PCCI/O in case until I get to the line and then unbag there. I've seen then transported in carts without a case. While I'm personally not a fan of this practice I understand why it's done. I've never seen anyone transporting a PCC between stages simply by carrying it muzzle up or muzzle down. In fact doing so would be a violation of Appendix H9, #13, IMO. 

[Flatland Shooter]

15 hours ago, RickT said:

 I'm not seeing ranges that would technically allow such transfer in the parking area.  For those shooting either RFRI/O or PCCI/O what's your procedure.

 

I'm watching this thread specifically to see how clubs handle the transfer of PCC to cart prior to the match beginning.  I'd like to hear what all types of matches require (USPSA, UML, 3 gun, Steel and IDPA).

 

Local clubs seemingly consider the parking lot not part of the range and nothing is said if you go directly from car to cart before heading to your first stage.  In my case, its monkey see, monkey do.   

 

I did ask the MD/RM at one non-USPSA match and was told OK to put the PCC directly on the cart as long as the chamber flag was in place and no one was swept.  

 

So how do the local club matches and major matches in you area handle getting the PCC from you vehicle to your cart?

 

[DesertTortoise]

 

3 gun matches seem a lot more flexible than steel challenge or USPSA. Most guys load up their carts in the parking lot. Regardless of the safe table, parking lot, cart, rack, whatever... I feel safest when chamber flags are required. 

 

Had a guy go to stage his shotgun yesterday with a round already chambered. Ugh. 

 

Little rant here but guys are carrying around thousands of $$ in guns and are too cheap to spring for a plastic zip tie?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Old3GNR]

In my area, SE PA, for both USPSA and Steel Challenge, the gun is kept cased until you are at a safe table.  At that point it can be uncased and put into a cart.  You could leave the case at the table but I return it to the car.  The cart is parked facing a berm at each stage, sometimes at a designated mark, when it's your turn to shoot, the gun is removed from the cart and carried to the start position.  Muzzle up or down seems to be an option but I carry muzzle up and it remains there until the "Make Ready" command.

[rowdyb]

People drive to the range with the pcc in the bag or whatever they put it in at home. Then when they arrive at the match it is in a bag/scabbard or something. The whole thing goes into a cart or over their shoulder. No one I've seen just has their pcc loose in the trunk or back seat and then arrives at a match needing to transfer it in an uncased condition from their vehicle to something else.

[ZackJones]

At our range, for Steel at least, PCC is transferred in case to Safe Area and then transferred to cart. No one that I know of does it at the car. If they do they will get one warning and if it happens again they won’t shoot that day.

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

I'm watching this thread specifically to see how clubs handle the transfer of PCC to cart prior to the match beginning.  I'd like to hear what all types of matches require (USPSA, UML, 3 gun, Steel and IDPA).

 

Local clubs seemingly consider the parking lot not part of the range and nothing is said if you go directly from car to cart before heading to your first stage.  In my case, its monkey see, monkey do.   

 

I did ask the MD/RM at one non-USPSA match and was told OK to put the PCC directly on the cart as long as the chamber flag was in place and no one was swept.  

 

So how do the local club matches and major matches in you area handle getting the PCC from you vehicle to your cart?

 

As far as USPSA goes there is nothing forbidding handling a PCC such as taking it out of the car and putting it on a cart as long as it's flagged.

[RickT]

1 hour ago, Old3GNR said:

In my area, SE PA, for both USPSA and Steel Challenge, the gun is kept cased until you are at a safe table.  At that point it can be uncased and put into a cart.  You could leave the case at the table but I return it to the car.  The cart is parked facing a berm at each stage, sometimes at a designated mark, when it's your turn to shoot, the gun is removed from the cart and carried to the start position.  Muzzle up or down seems to be an option but I carry muzzle up and it remains there until the "Make Ready" command.

This makes the most sense from a safety standpoint.  At some ranges the car may be too far away to return the case and leaving it at the safe table would be the only option.  Not a problem unless the case "disappears" in which case there is no way to transport the rifle unless you have a trunk.

[Old3GNR]

10 hours ago, Sarge said:

As far as USPSA goes there is nothing forbidding handling a PCC such as taking it out of the car and putting it on a cart as long as it's flagged.

The Mid-Atlantic Section of Area 8 USPSA does not permit that practice.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Old3GNR said:

The Mid-Atlantic Section of Area 8 USPSA does not permit that practice.

I fully understand that some don't allow it. I'm just pointing out gaps in the rules that do indeed permit it.

[davsco]

On 5/6/2018 at 12:03 PM, ZackJones said:

I've never seen anyone transporting a PCC between stages simply by carrying it muzzle up or muzzle down. In fact doing so would be a violation of Appendix H9, #13, IMO. 

what rulebook is this?

 

Addendum to the 2014 USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

[ZackJones]

51 minutes ago, davsco said:

what rulebook is this?

 

Addendum to the 2014 USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

 

The 2018 USPSA Steel Challenge rules (https://steelchallenge.com/steel-challenge-Rules-Home.php).

 

The USPSA appendix is not applicable to Steel Challenge. We have our own set of rules for PCC.

 

 

[davsco]

ah, just saw the thread title on the main page, didn't notice it was in steel challenge section. frankly it's kinda dumb that scsa has its own rule book, given it's relationship with uspsa, and that a lot of folks shoot both games, but mostly because uspsa has a pretty thorough and time-tested rulebook so why not use that as a base and just have a steel challenge addendum (remove major power factor, etc)?  off topic i know...

[ZackJones]

frankly it's kinda dumb that scsa has its own rule book, given it's relationship with uspsa, and that a lot of folks shoot both games, but mostly because uspsa has a pretty thorough and time-tested rulebook so why not use that as a base and just have a steel challenge addendum (remove major power factor, etc)?  off topic i know...

There is a ton of stuff in the Handgun rules that doesn’t apply. We have done a lot of work to align the rules between the two sports. Spend a little time looking through the new rules. You may be surprised.

[zzt]

Both of the local clubs I shoot Steel Challenge at require a PCC or RFRx shooter to bring the gun to the line cased and put it on the table.  At Make Ready the case is opened.   I like it that way.  It was done to eliminate confusion.  Last year some actually carried their rifles over their shoulder on a sling.  There was some xxxing about being 'swept' by the muzzle of a carted gun.   There were also comments about the 60 degree cant of a carted gun doesn't come close to being 'reasonably' vertical.

 

After the Feb addendum and the MDs being quite specific about the rules for their shoots, everything is fine.  The only two things I have to remind some shooters about is that PCC shooters must hammer down and pull the trigger before flagging,  and rimfire shooters must have their finger completely outside the trigger guard at the start.

[1911luvr]

  I have to remind some shooters about is that PCC shooters must hammer down and pull the trigger before flagging, 

This seems so silly considering you have to hold it open to show clear before flagging, and if they are worried about a cocked internal hammer, opening the bolt to now flag it after pulling the trigger will recock the hammer.


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[Flatland Shooter]

11 minutes ago, 1911luvr said:

 

This seems so silly considering you have to hold it open to show clear before flagging, and if they are worried about a cocked internal hammer, opening the bolt to now flag it after pulling the trigger will recock the hammer.
 

 

 

I don't think its so much about a cocked hammer as it is about dropping the hammer on the (hopefully) empty chamber.  To me its not a big deal and with RO's not experienced with running a PCC shooter, they sometimes need to be reminded.  In time, it will all work out.

[stick]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:06 PM, Sarge said:

As far as USPSA goes there is nothing forbidding handling a PCC such as taking it out of the car and putting it on a cart as long as it's flagged.

This is what I do for both USPSA and SCSA matches.  Arrive at the range with PCC (s) bagged.  Uncase at the car and put into the cart muzzle down.  Put the cart next to the side berm.  When I'm on deck, I grab the stock and put the rifle muzzle down and walk to the line.

[RickT]

Why would a PCC have to drop the hammer when a RFR doesn't?  I understand some rimfire rifles don't like to be dry fired, but if I flag my PCC, flag it and leave the bolt locked back there is not way to have a round chambered.  I guess some PCCs don't lock back which means: show clear, release the bolt, drop the hammer, retract the bolt and close the bolt on the flag.  Why is this any safer than simply inserting the flag in an obviously empty chamber?

[zzt]

The rules say bolt closed on the flag, presumably to prevent the flag from accidentally falling out.  Hammer down is just an added precaution, and is consistent with what all other centerfire shooters must do.  Rimfire shooters have never been required to hammer down (at least by the rules), because few rimfires can be dry fired without damage.

[Trent1k1]

2 hours ago, RickT said:

Why would a PCC have to drop the hammer when a RFR doesn't?  I understand some rimfire rifles don't like to be dry fired, but if I flag my PCC, flag it and leave the bolt locked back there is not way to have a round chambered.  I guess some PCCs don't lock back which means: show clear, release the bolt, drop the hammer, retract the bolt and close the bolt on the flag.  Why is this any safer than simply inserting the flag in an obviously empty chamber?

The rules say that all other center-fired weapons need to have the trigger pulled.

 

PCC's are not rimfire.

[1911luvr]

The rules say that all other center-fired weapons need to have the trigger pulled.

 

PCC's are not rimfire.

 

Then the rule should be changed because it is dumb for PCC. If pistols also required a chamber flag, then I’d support the same rules, but since they don’t, and we already flag the chamber to show clear, this is a time wasting step that unnecessarily complicates the show clear process.

 

 

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[Sarge]

1 hour ago, 1911luvr said:

 

Then the rule should be changed because it is dumb for PCC. If pistols also required a chamber flag, then I’d support the same rules, but since they don’t, and we already flag the chamber to show clear, this is a time wasting step that unnecessarily complicates the show clear process.

 

 

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I feel more confident that a holstered gun is clear than I do a gun that is just sitting in a cart or pulled from a bag. I mean, who really knows it's still clear if you are not in constant contact with it?