4" Groups at 25 Yards

[Doublehelix]

I searched, but could not find anything on this, but if I missed something, I apologize.

 

I was reading Ben Stoeger's book (Practical Pistol: Reloaded), and he makes a comment about accuracy saying that at a minimum, you should be able to shoot a 4" group at 25 yards offhand.

 

I am not sure I can do that, especially not consistently. I understand that we need to hit mini-poppers at 25 yards at times, so I guess I can see the need, but this is not something that I can do on a regular basis.

 

I am not sure how much this is due to my old eyes, but at 25 yards, a 4" circle is pretty much covered by the sight (even a thin bladed Dawson FO).

 

Yesterday, I was testing myself at 25 yards with a 6" target, and I hit the target with 12 out of 15 shots, but my grouping was not within 4". This is OFFHAND, and I was pretty tired by the time I tested this. I would shoot a few, then put the gun down and rest my arms a bit (I had been practicing for about an hour at this point).

 

Can you guys do this regularly? Ben makes it sound like even a novice should be able to do this at a minimum.

[Jake Di Vita]

What I'm guessing he's saying is if you cannot do this your accuracy is going to cost you a hefty sum of points on match day. This remains true at all skill levels. You likely should bias a good portion of your training to develop your accuracy until you can shoot at least a 4 inch or better group offhand at 25. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

You didn't mention what you're shooting ...

 

Lots of guns and ammo will NOT shoot 4" groups at 25 yards.

 

Before you can test YOUR capability, you really have to know your

gun/ammos capability.

 

If your gun is shooting 6" groups at 25 yards, I'd say you'd be

doing real well to shoot 8" groups offhand.   If your gun shoots

2" groups at 25 yards, then you have a real good chance of

shooting 4" groups.

 

Ten years ago, I could shoot very nice groups at 15 yards with

my 45 year old BHP, using Remington green box 115 gr FMJ's

but the groups fell apart at 25 yards (6+ ").

 

I couldn't tell if it was me (eyesight) or the gun or the ammo.

 

Had a custom BHP built by EGW, went out with Rem green

box and shot 2" groups at 25 yards.   It was the GUN, not

me or the ammo.

 

FIRST, test your gun and ammo - HOW?   From a bench.

 

See if the sucker will shoot as well as you do    

 

Good luck with it.    

[Doublehelix]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

 

I should have mentioned my gun, sorry about that. Ben does state that as long as your gun is capable, you should be able to shoot 4" groups...

 

I am shooting a Benny Hill-made 2011 in .40 S&W on an STI frame, and yes, I have tested it from a sandbag rest at 25 yards (did it last week to sight it in as a matter of fact), and I can easily get sub-2" groups at 25 yards, and that is with some inconsistencies on my part. It is probably capable of sub-1" groups from something like a Ransom Rest.

[HoMiE]

Want to shoot better at 25 yards? Then practice shooting at 50 yards. If your just going for accuracy and not on timer then it’s all in sights and trigger control. Even if your front sight is covering the circle, you should be able to line it up with sides of target. 

 

Are you your shooting with a thumb rest?

[Doublehelix]

7 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Want to shoot better at 25 yards? Then practice shooting at 50 yards. If your just going for accuracy and not on timer then it’s all in sights and trigger control. Even if your front sight is covering the circle, you should be able to line it up with sides of target. 

 

Are you your shooting with a thumb rest?

 

Yep, thumb rest. I can try at 50 yards, but at that distance, I can't even see my hits without a sighting scope! Definitely going to be hard to line up my gun sights at that distance, but I do like the suggestion and it is something I can try and see how it goes.

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, Doublehelix said:

 at 25 yards, a 4" circle is pretty much covered by the sight 

 

No need to aim at a 4" circle - take a 6 o'clock hold on

a 8 - 12" circle.

 

That should make it a little easier    

 

p.s.  I thought you might be shooting plastic, but sounds like you

         do have a 1" gun    

[Jake Di Vita]

2 hours ago, Doublehelix said:

 

Yep, thumb rest. I can try at 50 yards, but at that distance, I can't even see my hits without a sighting scope! 

 

Why are you trying to see your hits? Your attention needs to be on what's happening with the sights and your hands while you are shooting the group. Focus on the act of shooting, check your hits after. 

 

Increasing the distance that you are shooting at won't help you make the correction to shrink your group size. The target has no input on what you're doing when you're pulling the trigger. It just needs to be far enough away that small errors are highlighted. 25 yards is far enough.

[Doublehelix]

1 hour ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

Why are you trying to see your hits? Your attention needs to be on what's happening with the sights and your hands while you are shooting the group. Focus on the act of shooting, check your hits after. 

 

Increasing the distance that you are shooting at won't help you make the correction to shrink your group size. The target has no input on what you're doing when you're pulling the trigger. It just needs to be far enough away that small errors are highlighted. 25 yards is far enough.

 

Thanks, and I was just trying being funny about not being able to see my hits at 50 yds. My (not so funny) point was that I can't see very well at 50 yds, and can barely see the bullseye. When I am shooting my rifle at 50 yds, I use my scope, and then have to use my spotting scope later to confirm my hits, and certainly anything further than 50 yds, it is a necessity of course.

 

I definitely don't focus on the hits until later.

 

I do like (and agree) with your point about 25 yards probably being plenty, but I thought I remember reading somewhere about Brian saying something about practicing at 25 and 50 yds from a rest. Offhand at 50 yds is probably not going to happen for me, although I do shoot steel plates at 35 yds a lot, and actually hit them pretty easily, but those are 18x24" plates which are kinda hard to miss, and I can see them fine even with my old eyes. ("Outer Limits" SCSA stage).

 

Thanks for all of the feedback.

[Paulie]

Isn’t freestyle at 25 yards a more practical (pun intended) proficiency to test? 

 

I guess classifiers test strong / weak accuracy but you don’t really see it at higher level matches, right? 

[Jake Di Vita]

46 minutes ago, Doublehelix said:

Thanks, and I was just trying being funny about not being able to see my hits at 50 yds. My (not so funny) point was that I can't see very well at 50 yds, and can barely see the bullseye. When I am shooting my rifle at 50 yds, I use my scope, and then have to use my spotting scope later to confirm my hits, and certainly anything further than 50 yds, it is a necessity of course.

 

My fault. I tend to take things like that at face value because I've been told everything you can possibly imagine in my time coaching people.

 

26 minutes ago, Paulie said:

Isn’t freestyle at 25 yards a more practical (pun intended) proficiency to test? 

 

 

I'm taking offhand in this context to mean freestyle and unsupported.

[rowdyb]

With no time constraint at 25 yards I am unhappy if I have any misses on the head and at least half of them better be in the A. If not, I didn't do my actions properly.

[StuckinMS]

5 hours ago, Doublehelix said:

 

Yep, thumb rest. I can try at 50 yards, but at that distance, I can't even see my hits without a sighting scope! Definitely going to be hard to line up my gun sights at that distance, but I do like the suggestion and it is something I can try and see how it goes.

I am legally blind, can't "see" my hits at 3 yards, but I can call my shots out to 40 yards.  Haven't shot much at fifty, but this is something that should be practiced.  Nils practices at that range often.  If you only practice at 15 yards you will only be a good shooter at 15 yards type of thing. Use that spotting scope and as you start getting comfortable making hits at that distance, concentrate on the slide on sights and pick up the pace.

[old558]

This is something I should work on more often, since I mostly shoot steel I am mostly just concerned on it ringing.

[benos]

For 20 years, I ended most practice sessions with offhand group shooting at 25 yards. In other words you cannot do that drill too much.

[Paulie]

1 hour ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

My fault. I tend to take things like that at face value because I've been told everything you can possibly imagine in my time coaching people.

 

 

I'm taking offhand in this context to mean freestyle and unsupported.

 

Oops.

 

I have heard from wise men about the concept of “over aiming” and I improved my groups a lot by changing my focus. 

 

Stay with me...people who are trying really hard tend to rush the trigger when the perfect sight picture / alignment is present and as a result they disturb the perfection they sought. 

 

1 aim the gun

2 stop aiming the gun

3 relax and make a smooth trigger press

 

The sight picture / alignment is surprisingly forgiving. The press is not. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Paulie

[Doublehelix]

14 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

My fault. I tend to take things like that at face value because I've been told everything you can possibly imagine in my time coaching people.

 

 

I'm taking offhand in this context to mean freestyle and unsupported.

 

Correct, freestyle and unsupported (two hands on the gun).

 

 

14 hours ago, rowdyb said:

With no time constraint at 25 yards I am unhappy if I have any misses on the head and at least half of them better be in the A. If not, I didn't do my actions properly.

 

Thanks. It sounds like I definitely need to work on this.

[IHAVEGAS]

Practicing with a good revolver is good for my semi-auto accuracy, for whatever reason. 

[Doublehelix]

13 hours ago, StuckinMS said:

I am legally blind, can't "see" my hits at 3 yards, but I can call my shots out to 40 yards.  Haven't shot much at fifty, but this is something that should be practiced.  Nils practices at that range often.  If you only practice at 15 yards you will only be a good shooter at 15 yards type of thing. Use that spotting scope and as you start getting comfortable making hits at that distance, concentrate on the slide on sights and pick up the pace.

 

13 hours ago, benos said:

For 20 years, I ended most practice sessions with offhand group shooting at 25 yards. In other words you cannot do that drill too much.

 

Great advice. Thanks for giving me ONE MORE THING to have to practice!!! 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Paulie said:

 

Oops.

 

I have heard from wise men about the concept of “over aiming” and I improved my groups a lot by changing my focus. 

 

Stay with me...people who are trying really hard tend to rush the trigger when the perfect sight picture / alignment is present and as a result they disturb the perfection they sought. 

 

1 aim the gun

2 stop aiming the gun

3 relax and make a smooth trigger press

 

The sight picture / alignment is surprisingly forgiving. The press is not. 

 

 

Great post Paulie, and this makes perfect sense. This is certainly how I shoot at match speed, why not when working on bullseye techniques? I definitely tend to strain when I am really focused on aiming on a long shot like 25 yards into a small target. I will work on this and try to bring some of Brian's Zen with me...

 

You guys are the best! Thank you so much.

[MemphisMechanic]

What you are aiming at makes a huge difference:

 

A USPSA paper target will invite you to wander around in a 2” or so circle due to the lack of precise reference points for dead center. Particularly in the vertical plane.

 

An 8 to 10” round steel plate with a fresh coat of white paint? I find it VERY easy to precisely center the sights on such a target. My slowfire group size on a round plate is always smaller than it is on a USPSA Metric target.

 

And if you’re trying this indoors? That’s an exercise in poorly lit futility.

[Doublehelix]

7 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

What you are aiming at makes a huge difference:

 

A USPSA paper target will invite you to wander around in a 2” or so circle due to the lack of precise reference points for dead center. Particularly in the vertical plane.

 

An 8 to 10” round steel plate with a fresh coat of white paint? I find it VERY easy to precisely center the sights on such a target. My slowfire group size on a round plate is always smaller than it is on a USPSA Metric target.

 

And if you’re trying this indoors? That’s an exercise in poorly lit futility.

 

Always outdoors if I can help it.

 

I have been sticking 6" splatter targets on a cardboard target.

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, Doublehelix said:

 

I have been sticking 6" splatter targets on a cardboard target.

 

Perfect.  Take a 6 o'clock hold on it, and you should be getting 4" groups

in no time    

[Doublehelix]

14 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Perfect.  Take a 6 o'clock hold on it, and you should be getting 4" groups

in no time    

 

Thanks. I am going to add this to my live fire drills every time for a while and see how I do.

[rougeqc21]

I have found that working 25 yard groups has tremendously helped my confidence on partials. Haven't really worked distance at speed yet but again, the work is paying off in the rest of my game.

[IHAVEGAS]

http://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/99-48.pdf

 

For what it is worth, it is not 25 yards but working this classifier in practice seems to be helping me with match accuracy.

 

For quick & simple set up I just use a black marker to indicate where the no shoot would be, anything except 12 alphas is a failure. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by IHAVEGAS