USPSA range commands and an AD

[HickLife]

The same rule book will dq you for unsafe weapon handling. If you unintentionally fire a round, that is unsafe. There are a lot of things you can cite and say “but it followed these guidelines”. There is still the fact that the shot was unintentional. I don’t know how you can say accidentally firing off a round is in any way safe. 

 

 

[Sarge]

17 minutes ago, HickLife said:

The same rule book will dq you for unsafe weapon handling. If you unintentionally fire a round, that is unsafe. There are a lot of things you can cite and say “but it followed these guidelines”. There is still the fact that the shot was unintentional. I don’t know how you can say accidentally firing off a round is in any way safe. 

 

 

Not saying it’s unsafe. Saying it’s not always a DQ. This is a game . It has rules. If you want to stop yourself and pack up that’s your business. But a competitor following the rules shoots until gets stopped for breaking a rule from our rulebook.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, HickLife said:

The same rule book will dq you for unsafe weapon handling. If you unintentionally fire a round, that is unsafe. There are a lot of things you can cite and say “but it followed these guidelines”. There is still the fact that the shot was unintentional. I don’t know how you can say accidentally firing off a round is in any way safe. 

 

 

 

In general, you are correct-ish, however in practice, it can be difficult to discern what is an 'early shot' and what is an 'unsafe shot'. In general, I think any shot that happens where would be expected to be prepping the trigger and about to shoot is perfectly fine. the gun is pointed in a safe direction, etc... It's unintentional, but safe. OTOH, any shot that occurs when you are NOT engaging a target (i e. you are moving and not aiming or shooting, or you are reloading, or you are drawing, or you are clearing a malfunction, or you are unloading and showing clear), is not only unsafe, but is pretty obvious to delineate and describe and enforce. I think USPSA rules are pretty well-thought-out in that respect.

[GeneBray]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:17 PM, JAFO said:

So the take away from all this would be, "Always perform hammer down aimed at a target and expecting a shot."

@JAFO.  You could if you want to but after issuance of ICHDH or ICCCH any shot fired is a DQ.  

 

8.3.7  ..... After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). ...

[bret]

On 5/2/2018 at 12:22 PM, motosapiens said:

 

we also require that it not occur during the unloading process. If the shooter is responding to 'if finished, ulsc' and cooks off an obviously unexpected shot, it seems to me that the shot occurred while unloading. It sounds grey-ish when you type it, but in all the situations I've actually observed, it's been extremely black and white. I wouldn't make a dq call unless I was really sure of it. Nonetheless, I wouldn't have a real issue if the RM or arb committee wanted to overturn my decision.

He didn't drop the magazine, so what makes it a shot fired during a reload/unloading? 

Edited May 29, 2018 by bret

[tanks]

On 5/6/2018 at 3:36 PM, motosapiens said:

Yeah, USPSA rules pretty clearly allow you to have AD's (or 'early shots' in the politically correct terminology). And I'm ok with that. If you are prepping the trigger about to shoot something, and the gun goes off before it is quite on target, it is no big deal. You meant to shoot, it just happened a tenth or so earlier than planned. That is way different from running somewhere with the gun down and having it go off, or having it go off during a reload or transfer, or having it go off after you unloaded and showed clear and went to hammer down. In those situations, you weren't expecting the gun to go off *at all*.

 

You changed the discussion a bit in that we were talking for actions after "if finished..." but before "if clear". I have seen ADs after "if finished" in major matches that did not result in a DQ and in one case actually the user got a DQ, MD came, reversed it and the user got a reshoot (as the RO had told everyone to tape it up). I have also seen people remove the mag, realize there was a miss on the last target, fire a shot and be fine as that was before showing the RO an empty chamber.

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, tanks said:

I have also seen people remove the mag, realize there was a miss on the last target, fire a shot and be fine as that was before showing the RO an empty chamber.

 

we covered that. i've done it myself (at nationals). no problem.

 

in practice, it has always been very easy for me to tell the difference between an AD while ULSC, and a deliberate shot after pausing the ULSC process. If it's not easy for you, don't make the call.

[tanks]

I am going to an RO class the weekend after next and I'll ask. In my understanding that an AD is not a DQable offense if it is not during movement, reload or transfer etc. as long as it is within the rules. Under what rule would you DQ someone if they had an AD after "if finished" but were NOT in the process of removing the mag assuming it was towards the berm and the round impacted further than the minimum distance? I don't think intent matters in DQable offenses.

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, tanks said:

I am going to an RO class the weekend after next and I'll ask. In my understanding that an AD is not a DQable offense if it is not during movement, reload or transfer etc. as long as it is within the rules. Under what rule would you DQ someone if they had an AD after "if finished" but were NOT in the process of removing the mag assuming it was towards the berm and the round impacted further than the minimum distance? I don't think intent matters in DQable offenses.

did you read troy's take on the subject? (i posted a link earlier). To put it succinctly, I agree with DNROI. You should too.