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Bullets are keyholeing on target


Bench

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57 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

You’ve gotten good advice. 

 

One last question, what kind of crimp die are you using?

 

While your TG load is too low for USPSA (I shoot 147s and use TG) tumbling is most often a function of crimping and damage to the bullet where it sets in case. 

 

I use a Dillon crimp die and never worry about the actual crimp size. (The reason is because when using range brass the case wall thickness varies from brand to brand and it is difficult to get a single crimp number that works.) What I do is this:

 

1. Load a few test rounds (no powder or primer) at the correct OAL for my gun. 

2. Make sure it plunks in barrel and Hundo gauge checker. 

3. Unload/pull bullet and check for crimp ring/dent (there shouldn’t be one) and damage to base and coating. Make sure you do this with multiple head stamps/brands of brass. 

4. If it passes the above good to go, load up live rounds for chrono and range test. 

5. If it fails the crimp inspection, after checking multiple different head stamps, loosen crimp and run some more test rounds. 

 

The goal is the least amount of crimp that will hold bullet in place and will case gauge; the 147gr 9mm has almost zero chance of setback due to tapered brass case and especially because the 147 is really long and set deep in the case. 

 

Damaging the base of a subsonic bullet has a far greater effect on how it flies than any to the nose.

 

Have fun and let the readers know what worked for your process of reloading. 

I'm using the Dillon crimp in a SDB. Thanks for the great checklist above. I'll post later to follow up. Thanks!!

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The 147 grain bullet is long (relatively speaking) for the 9mm so in order for it to stabilize you'll probably need to (like many here have mentioned) drive it faster.

Your crimp should be fine at .377, but plunk and rotate a few loaded rounds in you barrel to make sure. By doing so you'll be able to check several things at once. 1. If the round is sized correctly. 2. If the crimp is correct. 3. If the bullet seating depth is correct for the bullet profile.

Hang in there. You'll get it.

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46 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

 

I just noticed the length, is that really what you are loading at?

 

If so your problem is highly likely the base is getting swaged down by the case and may be undersized. Definitely pull some bullets and check the size. 

 

I shoot Tanfoglio, my son CZ, using Blues and Eggleston 147s the nose profile limited our length to 1.08 and with that I had to be picky with brass. CBC was definitely a no go and any with that dashed ring around the outside, Aquila and FC I believe, also failed. After running over 15k of those we switched to Acme 147FP for 10k and it loaded far easier with zero head stamp issues (yep CBC loaded fine) with a length of 1.13-1.14. The difference is in the nose profile. 

 

It takes a some practice and trying of different brands and shapes of bullets to find the one which works best for you.

 

again have fun, this is a hobby. 

As mentioned above I'll check for any evidence of crimp distortion and back off that if need be. At this point I'm just approaching the 1K mark and still "fiddling" with the loads. Thanks.

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40 minutes ago, rishii said:

Minor, easily

3.8 of w231 averaged 130PF

4.0 of w231 averaged 135PF

both of those out of a S&W 5906

Thanks. It'll be interesting to see what these loads come up with for PF.

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On 5/1/2018 at 3:04 PM, HesedTech said:

 

I just noticed the length, is that really what you are loading at?

Today I plunked in a resized case and it slid right in and out of the barrel when plunked, I loaded a dummy round with that same case at the 1.048 OAL and it began to stick a bit when upturned. It definitely didn't turn easily when plunked so I'm assuming that the OAL is a bit long still. The crimp is back to .378 and only a slight compression of the coating vs. a defined ring at the crimp. Range day tomorrow or Friday to chrono and check for tumbling.

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I reload to 1.120 for my Glocks and MPX. I would double check that. Do you seat and crimp in the same step? To pass the plunk test, I seat in one step and crimp in the next. Crimping and seating at the same time can cause the case to bulge. When crimping make sure the crimp die removes all of the bell and bulge - I use a Lee die to crimp.

 

TG works fine for coated bullets. I have run thousands of 124ge  Blue Bullets without issues.

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Like others, I would suggest a higher charge of TG and do not over crimp. Over crimping is never good. Get the bell out and do a press test for setback. Allow for different brass if that is important. Like so many others, I run 3.1 TG under a 147 (Bayou). PF is a bit over 130. Pretty standard load. I have not had a problem with leading in a G17 with Glock or KKM barrels although, honestly, I stopped checking.

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19 minutes ago, David.Hylton said:

I reload to 1.120 for my Glocks and MPX. I would double check that. Do you seat and crimp in the same step? To pass the plunk test, I seat in one step and crimp in the next. Crimping and seating at the same time can cause the case to bulge. When crimping make sure the crimp die removes all of the bell and bulge - I use a Lee die to crimp.

 

TG works fine for coI"mated bullets. I have run thousands of 124ge  Blue Bullets without issues.

I"m using a Dillon SDB and the seat and crimp dies are seperate stages. What  do you crimp your reloads to?

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9 minutes ago, lgh said:

Like others, I would suggest a higher charge of TG and do not over crimp. Over crimping is never good. Get the bell out and do a press test for setback.

What do you crimp your 9mm to? and how do you run your 'press test' for setback? That's something that I'm not familiar with.

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On 5/1/2018 at 3:56 PM, MikieM said:

 If the round is sized correctly. 2. If the crimp is correct. 3. If the bullet seating depth is correct for the bullet profile.

Hang in there. You'll get it.

Thanks, I think I"m getting there, but with a shorter OAL they are plunking and rotating now. Now just to get out to the range!!!

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1.048 is really short and will give you a noticeable bulge where the bullet seats as the brass thickens. It is highly likely that CBC brass will not gauge test.  I might have missed it, but what gun are you loading for?

 

First photo is one of my 147 PDs loaded at 1.14 and you can see the slight bulge where it seats down in the case. This round plunks and gauges perfectly. And setback or the ability to have the bullet pushed further into the case is a non-issue with these long bullets. 

 

The second is is a cutaway from the web showing how the case tapers and the walls grow thicker as they approach the base. Makes loading heavy bullets more challenging in 9 mm

 

 

9MM-146-Bullet.thumb.jpg.3c16d1f32792c080c17044edd49d24ac.jpgC95AE36D-893C-4BB3-B659-06A951E7BD02.thumb.jpeg.457416ae384a650d05dd4f50cb72f1e8.jpeg

 

Edited by HesedTech
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The bullet is gyro-stabilized like the "top" you played with as a child.  Whether or not it's traveling fast enough is a combination of the barrel's twist rate and velocity.  Is it spinning at enough RPMs to remain gyro-stabilized?  It's possible that yours is but still tumbles.  Here's the deal, --

 

You can cause problems in loading that will destabilize a bullet faster than it should.  The bullet starts to wobble, the wobble becomes more and more exaggerated, and eventually it tilts far enough that instead of wobbling back the other way, it simply tumbles.  This will happen to every bullet eventually if it travels long enough without hitting something solid, but the question is whether or not you've done things in loading that hasten the tumble t some point between the muzzle and the target.  It is quite possible to increase velocity enough to hide problems long enough for the bullet to get to the target before tumbling, but that does not mean velocity alone was the problem.  I'll tell you that .376 crimp is too tight for a .356 diameter coated lead bullet.  Over crimping damages the bullet, and that can cause... wait for it... tumbling.  .377 crimp is pushing it, as well.  There is no reason to crimp tighter than .378 with a .356 lead bullet UNLESS you can demonstrate that it produces better precision.  Taper-crimping more than necessary produces zero benefit and can cause problems -- like tumbling.  

 

Another possible issue is short OAL with an extremely long bullet, which is the case with the 147gr Precision offering.  The case walls of a 9mm case get thicker .300 from the case mouth, which causes the interior diameter to of case to shrink.  When you seat a lead bullet where the base goes deeper than that, it can swage the base of the bullet and guess what that causes.  Did you guess tumbling?  :)  Tumbling is the correct answer.  The fact that Precision swages their lead bullets, rather than casting, likely means they're using softer lead than what we normally see in cast bullets, which increases the likelihood of swaging during deep seating.

 

I also do not remember what dies you are using, but if you are using a Lee FCD for your crimp die, that will swage down a lead bullet and cause... wait for it... tumbling.  ;) 

At the end of the day, tumbling is usually caused by poor bullet to barrel fit, a damaged bullet, or not enough velocity give the twist rate to gyro-stabilize the bullet.  Increasing the velocity will obviously fix the problem if the problem is velocity, but it can also hide the problem when the problem is one of the other two by keeping it stabilized long enough to get to the target before it tumbles.  That doesn't mean you've fixed the problem, though.  And even though such a bullet doesn't tumble before it gets to the target doesn't mean accuracy wasn't affected.  Accuracy most likely is affected, just no tumble.

 

In your shoes, I'd get my velocity up -- because you need to, but I'd also go ahead and reduce crimp to .378.  And if you're using a Lee FCD, I'd quit that immediately with lead bullets.  AND the next time I ordered bullets, I'd order another brand that didn't require me to seat the bullet base so deeply into the case.  ACME 145gr RN and 147gr TCFP are in the same weight class and are stellar bullets.  And if I loved Precision, I'd drop to their 125gr offerings.  You're shooting a Beretta 92?  That's an all metal pistol.  With the way heavier all metal pistols mitigate recoil, the felt recoil benefit of a heavy bullet is meaningless anyway.

 

Good luck.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Bench said:

What do you crimp your 9mm to? and how do you run your 'press test' for setback? That's something that I'm not familiar with.

0.378 is the tightest I ever crimp to. Currently it is 0.380 with the Bayou 147. When measuring crimp, be sure your measuring technique is reproducible.

 

Measure the COAL of a test round. Now push the nose of the bullet into the bench top with some force. I lean into it with body weight. Re-check the COAL. If it did not change you should not have to worry about setback. Others might have different ways of checking but this works for me.

 

And like IDescribe said, don't use a Lee FCD with lead bullets. It is not designed for the wider diameter of lead bullets and will swage them leading to problems like ... wait for it ... tumbling and leading?

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9 hours ago, HesedTech said:

1.048 is really short and will give you a noticeable bulge where the bullet seats as the brass thickens. It is highly likely that CBC brass will not gauge test.  I might have missed it, but what gun are you loading for?

 

It's a 92FS. The OAL that I've targeted has been determined by the plunk test. The bullets are Precision 147 FN (coated).

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1 hour ago, lgh said:

0.378 is the tightest I ever crimp to. Currently it is 0.380 with the Bayou 147. When measuring crimp, be sure your measuring technique is reproducible.

Thanks lgh, .378 is what Dillon set the crimp at so I'm back at that. Setback test is now added to my reloading routine. Thanks again.

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2 hours ago, IDescribe said:

In your shoes, I'd get my velocity up -- because you need to, but I'd also go ahead and reduce crimp to .378.  And if you're using a Lee FCD, I'd quit that immediately with lead bullets.  AND the next time I ordered bullets, I'd order another brand that didn't require me to seat the bullet base so deeply into the case.  ACME 145gr RN and 147gr TCFP are in the same weight class and are stellar bullets.  And if I loved Precision, I'd drop to their 125gr offerings.  You're shooting a Beretta 92?  That's an all metal pistol.  With the way heavier all metal pistols mitigate recoil, the felt recoil benefit of a heavy bullet is meaningless anyway.

I don't know why I've settled on Precision but from what you lay out very well in the above I think I need to head in a different direction for bullet choice. I find that with a plunk test the OAL really does need to be shortened up. It'll be interesting to see how the ACME's load up...once I go through this new order of Precisions. Crimp of .378 is what came from Dillon on the SDB so I'm back at that. Hopefully I'll be squared away on my reloads soon. Thanks for your well put information!!!

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I do the "push test" as described above. I also will take my digital calipers to the range and run a couple through several load/eject cycles measuring before and after.

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9 hours ago, ddc said:

I do the "push test" as described above. I also will take my digital calipers to the range and run a couple through several load/eject cycles measuring before and after.

With that in mind, what crimp do you reload to? Any problems with Positive push test results with your crimp?

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30 minutes ago, Bench said:

With that in mind, what crimp do you reload to? Any problems with Positive push test results with your crimp?

When I first started reloading I went down as far as .376. I've loosened that up over the years and now look for .378/.379.

SAAMI spec is .380.

Factory ammo is often down around .377.

 

I don't recall if it's been discussed before on this thread but remember that crimping for a autopistol cartridge only amounts to removing the bell.

The crimp die should not be pinching the case mouth into the bullet.

May not be noticeable with jacketed bullets but with plated or coated if you pull a bullet and see a crimp ring I would back that out until it is minimal or non existent.

Along with having a chrono another essential piece of equipment is a bullet puller so you can check for over crimping.

 

If you are getting bullet set back it is as likely an issue with your sizing die as it is with your crimp.

The neck tension provided by the sizing of the case should be sufficient to prevent set back.

 

Here is a test: Take a cartridge which has had the bullet seated but not crimped yet. Measure the length and then do a push test.

I don't get any length difference before and after. If I did I would suspect my sizing die.

 

I use a Lee sizing die which is supposed to size the case down farther than others. I don't know if that is true as I've never done any comparative tests.

 

I do know that I don't remember the last time I had any set back problems.

 

Edited to add: I see I just repeated much of what HesedTech already said. I guess it's good to hear the same thing from multiple sources, eh? :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ddc
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1 hour ago, ddc said:

When I first started reloading I went down as far as .376. I've loosened that up over the years and now look for .378/.379.

SAAMI spec is .380.

Factory ammo is often down around .377.

 

I don't recall if it's been discussed before on this thread but remember that crimping for a autopistol cartridge only amounts to removing the bell.

The crimp die should not be pinching the case mouth into the bullet.

May not be noticeable with jacketed bullets but with plated or coated if you pull a bullet and see a crimp ring I would back that out until it is minimal or non existent.

Along with having a chrono another essential piece of equipment is a bullet puller so you can check for over crimping.

 

If you are getting bullet set back it is as likely an issue with your sizing die as it is with your crimp.

The neck tension provided by the sizing of the case should be sufficient to prevent set back.

 

Here is a test: Take a cartridge which has had the bullet seated but not crimped yet. Measure the length and then do a push test.

I don't get any length difference before and after. If I did I would suspect my sizing die.

Thanks ddc, the higher crimp numbers seem quite reasonable with the concept of avoiding the crimp ring and just eliminating the bell.

 

...and yes I've become very familiar with my bullet puller lol!! Thanks for confirming what others have said. It sinks in that way.

Edited by Bench
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21 hours ago, Bench said:

I don't know why I've settled on Precision but from what you lay out very well in the above I think I need to head in a different direction for bullet choice. I find that with a plunk test the OAL really does need to be shortened up. It'll be interesting to see how the ACME's load up...once I go through this new order of Precisions. Crimp of .378 is what came from Dillon on the SDB so I'm back at that. Hopefully I'll be squared away on my reloads soon. Thanks for your well put information!!!

 

If you're having to load short because of the plunk test, your gunsmith can throat your barrel to accept a longer OAL for $15 or $25. It doesn't change accuracy and allows you to load longer. 

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1 hour ago, 72stick said:

 

If you're having to load short because of the plunk test, your gunsmith can throat your barrel to accept a longer OAL for $15 or $25. It doesn't change accuracy and allows you to load longer. 

Now that's another new learning bit. Does the process just taper the rifling back a bit? That might explain why when I pushed hard on a long set dummy round on a plunk test there would be just one scratch on the coated bullet. Thanks!

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Bench, Precision bullets are not soft lead.  Second, you will have the same problem with any coated lead bullet that started life as a lubed lead bullet.  They are at least .001" oversized.

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You might take one of those "long" rounds that won't plunk and color it completely with Sharpie, then repeat the plunk test, it should be very clear whether case or bullet is the issue by where the ink rubs off.

 

Your COL is super short and is almost certainly swaging the base and bore riding area of your bullets. I see numerous accounts of people managing 1.12 from Berettas. Also Berettas are known for a huge groove diameter, often taking very large for caliber cast bullets to shoot well without leading.

 

No need to obsess over crimp, does the case still look/feel flaired? Does the case mouth look buried in the bullet? If no it's fine. I load cast bullets sized .358, PC'd bullets @ .357, hi-tek @ .356 and Blues that measure .355 without touching my crimp die and no issues, it just doesn't matter, close is good enough.

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4 hours ago, Beef15 said:

You might take one of those "long" rounds that won't plunk and color it completely with Sharpie, then repeat the plunk test, it should be very clear whether case or bullet is the issue by where the ink rubs off.

 

Your COL is super short and is almost certainly swaging the base and bore riding area of your bullets. I see numerous accounts of people managing 1.12 from Berettas. Also Berettas are known for a huge groove diameter, often taking very large for caliber cast bullets to shoot well without leading.

 

No need to obsess over crimp, does the case still look/feel flaired? Does the case mouth look buried in the bullet? If no it's fine. I load cast bullets sized .358, PC'd bullets @ .357, hi-tek @ .356 and Blues that measure .355 without touching my crimp die and no issues, it just doesn't matter, close is good enough.

Thanks Beef15, I have done the Sharpie trick and it is the bullet that gets marked. From your questions regarding flair and case mouth it's 'no' so I guess I'm good.

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