Bullets are keyholeing on target

[GrumpyOne]

Sometimes, a gun just doesn't like a particular bullet profile.

[Bench]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

Sometimes, a gun just doesn't like a particular bullet profile.

Thanks, hope this is the last one for quite a while, though I'll know what to do should that ever roll around again.

[Wheeljack]

When I used coated bullets, I found the coating to be uneven.   If I bought a .356 diameter bullet, I would run them thru a .356 Lee sizing die. Check out your coated bullets at different points along the diameter.

[Bench]

1 hour ago, Wheeljack said:

When I used coated bullets, I found the coating to be uneven.   If I bought a .356 diameter bullet, I would run them thru a .356 Lee sizing die. Check out your coated bullets at different points along the diameter.

Was it the situation across various brands of coated bullets?

[StuckinMS]

 good work everyone.  Learned a lot from tracking this experiment!

[Bench]

27 minutes ago, StuckinMS said:

 good work everyone.  Learned a lot from tracking this experiment!

Glad to be the subject of this 'experiment'...lol!!

[Wheeljack]

6 hours ago, Bench said:

Was it the situation across various brands of coated bullets?

Yes.  Some more than others. 

[Bench]

8 hours ago, Wheeljack said:

Yes.  Some more than others. 

Which were the worst offenders?

[Wheeljack]

I haven't tried them all, so I can't say.  If I do use coated bullets I just automatically run them thru a resizing die.

[IDescribe]

ACME is the most consistent I've dealt with, and I measure with a micrometer. 

 

Keep in mind what happens to the bullet when it gets engraved and passes down the barrel. Of you're running at the bottom end of acceptable sizing, a sizing die might help, but if you are running at the upper end, I don't imagine that it makes much difference.  The nice even coating going I to the barrel is going to be altered as soon as it enters the rifling anyway. 

[Bench]

15 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

ACME is the most consistent I've dealt with, and I measure with a micrometer. 

 

Keep in mind what happens to the bullet when it gets engraved and passes down the barrel. Of you're running at the bottom end of acceptable sizing, a sizing die might help, but if you are running at the upper end, I don't imagine that it makes much difference.  The nice even coating going I to the barrel is going to be altered as soon as it enters the rifling anyway. 

I've been threatening to give Acme a try and haven't gotten to it yet. I placed an order with Gallant for two diameters last week but all I've heard is 'crickets'. No indication of shipping date, no response to an email, and no return call after leaving a message. They have been bumped down the list a few notches.

 

Thanks for bringing up the idea of measuring for consistency. I'll run a few EM's through my dial calipers.

[IDescribe]

Gallant is in the process of switching from a part-time 2-man operation to a full time job for the owner, and they just got hammered with a bunch of orders.  It will settle out soon.  You're dealing with their growing pains.

 

ACME are typically .356 to .3565, so not necessarily up to the size you want.  And their .38 bullets sized .358 have lube grooves, which I typically avoid for coated bullets. 

 

In your position, I'd stick with Eggleston for the time being.  And give Gallant some time to get up to speed.  

[Bench]

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

Gallant is in the process of switching from a part-time 2-man operation to a full time job for the owner, and they just got hammered with a bunch of orders.  It will settle out soon.  You're dealing with their growing pains.

 

ACME are typically .356 to .3565, so not necessarily up to the size you want.  And their .38 bullets sized .358 have lube grooves, which I typically avoid for coated bullets. 

 

In your position, I'd stick with Eggleston for the time being.  And give Gallant some time to get up to speed.  

Thanks for the tidbit on the Acme .38's. I'm not a fan of LG bullets either. Eli did call me today and indicated their growing pains so I was glad to hear that they are still up and running and my order of samples is underway and will be here soon. So for now I'll see what the Gallant's are all about and how they run down the barrel and continue with Eggelston's.

[Ludde]

Quick question to you all. Please give your expert opinion.

 

Every now and then, perhaps 1 or 2 per 100 rounds a bullet keyholes on the target. I use VV N320, mixed brass Los copper plated 123gr FP ~130pf. The barrell has been thoroughly cleaned and that helped a bit. It helped also somewhat when I changed from 145gr to 123gr. Initially I could use 145gr without problems also. Do you think I have too much crimp?

Edited May 24, 2018 by Ludde

[Bench]

49 minutes ago, Ludde said:

Quick question to you all. Please give your expert opinion.

 

Every now and then, perhaps 1 or 2 per 100 rounds a bullet keyholes on the target. I use VV N320, mixed brass Los copper plated 123gr FP ~130pf. The barrell has been thoroughly cleaned and that helped a bit. It helped also somewhat when I changed from 145gr to 123gr. Initially I could use 145gr without problems also. Do you think I have too much crimp?

I''m certainly not an old expert but from what I've learned from this thread it appears that you might have too much crimp on that bullet. What does your case measure on a crimped bullet?

[Wheeljack]

Crimp looks good to me.  The shells mouth often has a lip on the inside that causes the line.  But, like Bench said, measure.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Wheeljack

[Ludde]

I'll do my best to measure it..

[johnbu]

On 5/18/2018 at 9:23 AM, Bench said:

I've been threatening to give Acme a try and haven't gotten to it yet. I placed an order with Gallant for two diameters last week but all I've heard is 'crickets'. No indication of shipping date, no response to an email, and no return call after leaving a message. They have been bumped down the list a few notches.

 

Thanks for bringing up the idea of measuring for consistency. I'll run a few EM's through my dial calipers.

 

When you try acme, code "54730" will save 10%

 

I also didn't see this potential "issue " listed.....

 

Your seeing "rotate, stick, rotate,  stick" which indicates an out of round or lumpy condition.  that could be the bullet, but more likely the case wasn't belled enough. Or the bullet was placed on the case crooked. That can cause the coating to be shaved .it can build up inside the case and make it lumpy.

 

You should also buy a case gauge for your caliber. I recently bought a 100 hole checker to do a whole box. And failed... miserably.  had to improve my methods an add a bulge buster step.

 

Just a couple thoughts.

[HesedTech]

20 hours ago, Ludde said:

Quick question to you all. Please give your expert opinion.

 

Every now and then, perhaps 1 or 2 per 100 rounds a bullet keyholes on the target. I use VV N320, mixed brass Los copper plated 123gr FP ~130pf. The barrell has been thoroughly cleaned and that helped a bit. It helped also somewhat when I changed from 145gr to 123gr. Initially I could use 145gr without problems also. Do you think I have too much crimp?

 

2

 

Yes.

 

Your bullet appears to be deformed where it crimps. 

Check the diameter of the bullet from the crimp to the base. It should remain at the factory size (normally .356 for plated).

Also, are you using the Lee FCD? Because the crimp seems to have a rather long taper to it.

 

9MM is a tapered case and normally set back is not an issue. 

[Bench]

2 hours ago, johnbu said:

  had to improve my methods an add a bulge buster step.

Now that's a process I'm not familiar with...what the heck is that????

[IDescribe]

22 hours ago, Bench said:

I quoted the wrong person.  Please delete this post. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by IDescribe

[IDescribe]

23 hours ago, Ludde said:

Quick question to you all. Please give your expert opinion.

 

Every now and then, perhaps 1 or 2 per 100 rounds a bullet keyholes on the target. I use VV N320, mixed brass Los copper plated 123gr FP ~130pf. The barrell has been thoroughly cleaned and that helped a bit. It helped also somewhat when I changed from 145gr to 123gr. Initially I could use 145gr without problems also. Do you think I have too much crimp?

 

YES that is way too much crimp.  You should not see a ring, and that bullet looks outright pinched. 

 

Set taper crimp for. 378 and be done with it. 

 

And if using Lee FCD, stop and get a regular taper crimp die. 

[MemphisMechanic]

@Ludde switch to a coated or FMJ bullet for 500 rounds or so. I bet it goes away.

 

Plated bullets are rather notorious for tumbling when better bullets (either of the other two options) will not.

[MemphisMechanic]

@Ludde switch to a coated or FMJ bullet for 500 rounds or so. I bet it goes away.

 

Plated bullets are rather notorious for tumbling when better bullets (either of the other two options) will not.

 

And with all the bullets you load, reduce your crimp setting. As soon as the case walls are visibly straight again, and your ammo case gauges 100% stop there. Less is more.

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Ludde]

Now I've done some measurements & adjustments to the press. What's your guys view on the findings and result?

Mixed brass same 123gr LOS copper plated FP bullet re-adjusted the case mouth flare a bit and the roll crimp.

It is hard to be real exact when measuring the case mouth after crimping getting the jaws of the calipers as far out on the case edge as possible. I also made sure to measure same case several times and use several samples to get a couple of average measurements. I have not case gauged them yet...

 

 

https://www.los.si/en/copper-plated-bullets/