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Bullets are keyholeing on target


Bench

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Also, I load those XTreme 147gr RN to 1.16 in my CZ ShadowLine, which is short-throated.  You should be able to load them to at least 1.19 in your 92, which is longer than the magazine will handle, 1.169 being the magazine limit.

You should also recheck crimp measurements on your finished cartridges.  If they're bigger than .380, that can produce false maximums on OAL.  Make sure to zero your calipers before doing so.

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58 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

Go back to an empty but sized case and insert it all the way and spin it.  Does it spin 100% freely?

Totally 100%.

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19 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

Also, I load those XTreme 147gr RN to 1.16 in my CZ ShadowLine, which is short-throated.  You should be able to load them to at least 1.19 in your 92, which is longer than the magazine will handle, 1.169 being the magazine limit.

You should also recheck crimp measurements on your finished cartridges.  If they're bigger than .380, that can produce false maximums on OAL.  Make sure to zero your calipers before doing so.

With this issue I've checked for zero frequently and double look at the scale/dial to assure proper readings.

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1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

Have you checked yet with the scotch tape or pencil mark to see if the slide and receiver line up at the same spot with the 1.045 vs the 1.11 vs the 1.13 vs the 1.15?
 

Not yet, got caught up with the Xtremes after my wife got back from surgery today. I'll get after it later this evening.

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If it is any consolation you are picking up the equivalent of about a year or two worth of reloading experience in a short period of time.

 

And just to give you some energy to keep going: It usually isn't this difficult to get a load dialed in. 

 

Once you figure out what is going on here you will be well equipped for the future.

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10 minutes ago, ddc said:

If it is any consolation you are picking up the equivalent of about a year or two worth of reloading experience in a short period of time.

 

And just to give you some energy to keep going: It usually isn't this difficult to get a load dialed in. 

 

Once you figure out what is going on here you will be well equipped for the future.

Thanks ddc, I certainly hope that I don't sound unappreciative because the information I'm getting here seems so right on and am thankful for posters that have stuck with me...and for this forum!!!

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1 hour ago, Bench said:

I certainly hope that I don't sound unappreciative because... 

 

Lord, no, brother. :) You've moved into the sport where your opponents are happy to give you everything you need to beat them.  I'm personally a minimalist, so I worry about not being soft enough.  :)

 

In most cases, it's an "issue" that's been seen a thousand time, and so easy to solve. In your case, it's something weird, so it takes some extra time to puzzle through. 

 

We'll keep at it, and it's a benefit to all who read the whole way through.  ?

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1 hour ago, Bench said:

Thanks ddc, I certainly hope that I don't sound unappreciative because the information I'm getting here seems so right on and am thankful for posters that have stuck with me...and for this forum!!!

Never occurred to me, you are doing it exactly right, just keep doing what you're doing.

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6 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

Lord, no, brother. :) You've moved into the sport where your opponents are happy to give you everything you need to beat them.  I'm personally a minimalist, so I worry about not being soft enough.  :)

 

In most cases, it's an "issue" that's been seen a thousand time, and so easy to solve. In your case, it's something weird, so it takes some extra time to puzzle through. 

 

We'll keep at it, and it's a benefit to all who read the whole way through.  ?

 

"We'll keep at it, and it's a benefit to all who read the whole way through."

 

Ain't that the truth. I'm enjoying this thread because while on the one hand it is confirming some of my own practices on the other hand it is also giving me some additional things to consider the next time I develop a new load.

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3 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

Lord, no, brother. :) You've moved into the sport where your opponents are happy to give you everything you need to beat them.  I'm personally a minimalist, so I worry about not being soft enough.  :)

 

In most cases, it's an "issue" that's been seen a thousand time, and so easy to solve. In your case, it's something weird, so it takes some extra time to puzzle through. 

 

We'll keep at it, and it's a benefit to all who read the whole way through.  ?

Well, I think I've found the right sport!! Thanks IDescribe. I did the line test, just to follow up and I think since I didn't see much of a diff at all, I'm just going to load up per your suggestion a few posts back and see how they fly. Thanks again!!!

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Just now, ddc said:

 

"We'll keep at it, and it's a benefit to all who read the whole way through."

 

Ain't that the truth. I'm enjoying this thread because while on the one hand it is confirming some of my own practices on the other hand it is also giving me some additional things to consider the next time I develop a new load.

Good to see that I'm not the only one learning here.

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8 hours ago, Bench said:

Good to see that I'm not the only one learning here.

Learning is what keeps people interested.  This sport has so many different aspects, that with the competitor's willingness to help and to listen, the possibilities are endless.  Your temporary troubles have brought you to a couple of wise loaders who are giving you great knowledge to pass along.  Very cool sport indeed!

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29 minutes ago, StuckinMS said:

Learning is what keeps people interested.  This sport has so many different aspects, that with the competitor's willingness to help and to listen, the possibilities are endless.  Your temporary troubles have brought you to a couple of wise loaders who are giving you great knowledge to pass along.  Very cool sport indeed!

That's for sure, you can count on me passing what I've learned along for as long as I can.

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33 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

OAL 1.12 keeps your bullet base above the .300 recommended max seating depth.  I'd start there.  Just make ultra sure the slide is closing all the way.  ? 

 

I'll be sure and check for going to battery fully. There shouldn't be any issues  with over pressure I'd guess. Range time tomorrow...reports to follow!!

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On 5/7/2018 at 7:44 PM, Bench said:

Not yet, got caught up with the Xtremes after my wife got back from surgery today. I'll get after it later this evening.

 

It'll be interesting to see what sort of luck you have with those.  I've loaded Precision 147s (older coating) without any trouble other than more smoke than I'd like.  I stopped buying Xtreme 147gr RN because they tumbled from some of my Glocks, and I never could figure out why.  I tried driving them faster, made sure I wasn't "crimping into them", etc.  I've used several other brands of coated 147 and haven't seen any of them tumble.

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2 hours ago, njl said:

 

It'll be interesting to see what sort of luck you have with those.  I've loaded Precision 147s (older coating) without any trouble other than more smoke than I'd like.  I stopped buying Xtreme 147gr RN because they tumbled from some of my Glocks, and I never could figure out why.  I tried driving them faster, made sure I wasn't "crimping into them", etc.  I've used several other brands of coated 147 and haven't seen any of them tumble.

The Xtreme's shot quite well out of my 92. I had them loaded at both 3.2 & 3.4 Titegroup @1.115. No key holing, made minor PF  easily. On the other hand the Precision FN 147's still keyhole @ 1.12  and I think I'm done with them. They made PF easily too but other bullets that I shot today didn't tumble so I think I'll be going in one of those directions.

 

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Ok, for all of you that are just hanging on the edge of your seats waiting to hear how things went at the range, your wait is over...

Precision 147 FN over 3.2gr. Titegroup OAL 1.12 50 rounds: Some round holes, mostly keyholes (aargh). Any one want what's left in the box??????

Xtreme 147 RN over 3.2 & 3.4 gr (25 each) Titegroup OAL 1.115: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 134-139.

Eggelston 147 RN over3.2 & 3.4 (25 each) Titegroup OAL 1.1: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 137-140.

Eggelston 124 RN over 3.2 & 3.4 (25 each) Titegroup OAL 1.12: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 122-128.

Eggelston 124 RN over 3.7 (50 each) Titegroup  OAL 1.12: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 131.8 and it didn't feel snappy. Easily saw the sights fall after each shot. Now if I could just shoot these as well freehand as was off a rest....

 

I bought Eggelston's since they are close here in town but I'd like to see what some other brand's coatings are like and how they load. Xtreme, Acme, Gallant, etc. are ones I'll be looking at but with Eggelston's in my hip pocket.

 

Again, I sincerely thank everyone that took the time and stuck with me in this thread and passed on their knowledge that has given me a few years jump start in this part of our sport.

 

THANK YOU ALL!!!

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If you want 147 FP coated, have a look at H&S Bullets.  I've shot several thousand of their 147gr FP coated (they're typically more like 149gr) and been happy with them.  AFAIK, they did just move to a new casting machine (and molds), so I don't know if there's a change to their 147 FP NLG bullet...but I'll find out next order.  Though I have some Titegroup, I've only loaded the H&S using Universal (3.4gr) and Promo (3.2gr).

 

Oh...and someone else mentioned this a page or a few ago...but watch out for certain headstamps.  Some are pretty much guaranteed to "muffin top" with 147gr bullets producing rounds that won't even chamber in a Glock (reputed to have pretty loose chambers).  I had a handful of case gauge rejects that I'd set aside at the loading bench, and the other weekend decided to go shoot those while doing some practice.  I knew they wouldn't gauge, wouldn't use them at a match, but figured they'd probably still shoot.  One of the first ones locked my G34 slide up not quite in battery.  I had to put the nose of the slide against a shooting bench and slap the butt to get it unlocked.  The rest got disassembled.  I won't even try loading 147s in Aguila and CBC brass.  Those are fine for 124s...but not 147s.

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4 minutes ago, njl said:

If you want 147 FP coated, have a look at H&S Bullets.  I've shot several thousand of their 147gr FP coated (they're typically more like 149gr) and been happy with them.  AFAIK, they did just move to a new casting machine (and molds), so I don't know if there's a change to their 147 FP NLG bullet...but I'll find out next order.  Though I have some Titegroup, I've only loaded the H&S using Universal (3.4gr) and Promo (3.2gr).

 

Oh...and someone else mentioned this a page or a few ago...but watch out for certain headstamps.  Some are pretty much guaranteed to "muffin top" with 147gr bullets producing rounds that won't even chamber in a Glock (reputed to have pretty loose chambers).  I had a handful of case gauge rejects that I'd set aside at the loading bench, and the other weekend decided to go shoot those while doing some practice.  I knew they wouldn't gauge, wouldn't use them at a match, but figured they'd probably still shoot.  One of the first ones locked my G34 slide up not quite in battery.  I had to put the nose of the slide against a shooting bench and slap the butt to get it unlocked.  The rest got disassembled.  I won't even try loading 147s in Aguila and CBC brass.  Those are fine for 124s...but not 147s.

It'll be interesting to hear what you find out after your next order from H&S. Thanks for the reminder regarding head stamps. I'm already dicking out the Aquila.

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1 hour ago, Talon75 said:

If your serious about getting rid of the Precisions I can give them a nice home!! 

PM me with your address and chip in some flat rate postage friends and family and they are yours.

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16 hours ago, Bench said:

I sincerely thank everyone that took the time and stuck with me in this thread and passed on their knowledge that has given me a few years jump start in this part of our sport.

 

 

That's the truth, sir, and it's a good way to look at this experience.  You had to deal with a few different issues trying to track down one.  :) 

 

To that point, velocity was no longer a potential issue with the Precision keyholing at 3.2gr of TG, so that's out.  And you weren't seating deeply enough to swage the bullet base at 1.12, so that's out.  Ultimately, your issue was bullet to barrel fit, supported by the fact that your Precision bullets measured .355, and the 92's reputation for an over-sized bore.  And the fact that three new bullets at .356 did not tumble reinforces that conclusion.  :) 

 

I would suggest that if .355 was small enough to tumble, .356 is probably still not ideal sizing -- it might be just borderline.  I would guess that there would be better fit and additional benefit of going to .357.   If you go that route, keep in mind that with two bullets from the same maker of the same profile, just different sizing, the larger diameter bullet will have to be seated shorter to stay out of rifling engagement.  That's no problem for you at 124/125gr bullets, but it might be at 135 or 147 -- it could put you right back in the same situation you started in with bullets stuck too deeply into the case.   If you wanted to try a slightly heavier bullet at .357, I'd try the Gallant 135gr.  It's a long-loading profile, and I suspect the "heavy" bullet least likely to cause you problems at .357.  If you wanted to try .357 in 124/125gr bullet, either Gallant or Eggleston would do the job.

As I think about Eggleston being close to you, I think in your shoes I would probably buy their 124gr bullets in two sizes -- .356 and .357, and then test them against each other and see if my pistol seemed to shoot one more accurately than the other.  THEN, if .357 was the better, AND I wanted to try a heavier bullet, I'd try the .357 135gr Gallant.   If .356 was the better, you'd be free to purchase from any of the major ones with little worry, and at 135 or 147, either one.  The only company I'd recommend against, given that your pistol has already problems with a .355 -- is Blue Bullets, who undersize their bullets to .355 as standard.  

Good luck.  :) 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Bench said:

Ok, for all of you that are just hanging on the edge of your seats waiting to hear how things went at the range, your wait is over...

Precision 147 FN over 3.2gr. Titegroup OAL 1.12 50 rounds: Some round holes, mostly keyholes (aargh). Any one want what's left in the box??????

Xtreme 147 RN over 3.2 & 3.4 gr (25 each) Titegroup OAL 1.115: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 134-139.

Eggelston 147 RN over3.2 & 3.4 (25 each) Titegroup OAL 1.1: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 137-140.

Eggelston 124 RN over 3.2 & 3.4 (25 each) Titegroup OAL 1.12: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 122-128.

Eggelston 124 RN over 3.7 (50 each) Titegroup  OAL 1.12: NO KEYHOLES. Power factor 131.8 and it didn't feel snappy. Easily saw the sights fall after each shot. Now if I could just shoot these as well freehand as was off a rest....

 

I bought Eggelston's since they are close here in town but I'd like to see what some other brand's coatings are like and how they load. Xtreme, Acme, Gallant, etc. are ones I'll be looking at but with Eggelston's in my hip pocket.

 

Again, I sincerely thank everyone that took the time and stuck with me in this thread and passed on their knowledge that has given me a few years jump start in this part of our sport.

 

THANK YOU ALL!!!

Hmmm...

 

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On 5/5/2018 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyOne said:

I was using a truncated cone 147 coated bullet, and was getting occasional tumbling. My load was 3.5 of VV N320 @ 1.150. Fps was around 920, PF was around 135. Not over crimped, etc. Went back to a PD 147 FMJ RN, tumbling stopped. The only thing i can attribute it to is the bullet profile.

Well, I second that comment from what I've found at the range yesterday with the load variations on the three different bullet types. I may not have found the PERFECT bullet yet but at least I know what won't work.

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