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Newbie .223 reloading questions


SlvrDragon50

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Getting ammo here in Illinois is an absolute PITA because I am a Florida resident here (as a student), and I can't get a FOID card. So I've started reloading all my 9mm for USPSA purposes, but now I am starting to get into 3 gun. I only plan on doing local club matches so I don't need the best shooting .223 rounds (<100 yards I think, MAYBE a 200 yard shot?). I have a couple of questions about reloading .223 since I'm getting really confused with case prep.

 

1) I've read that some people case prep everything. Other people don't case prep for hoser ammo? How much case prep should I expect to do? How long does it usually take to prep say 500 cases?

Lyman Case Prep Xpress Does something like this work? Seems fast enough and I imagine you could case prep while watching TV? Trimming the ammo was the biggest thing I was hesitant about with regards to case prep.

 

2) Once fired brass vs range pickups? Some people will only reload once-fired brass. I understand the risks of shooting unknown rifle brass, but at this point, doesn't the cost of reloading go up exorbitantly? This is the biggest factor for me since I can buy ammo at my range, it's just marked up quite a bit compared to bulk ammo from say Target Sport USA.

 

3) I don't plan on shooting the AR anywhere near the same volume so I am completely okay getting a single stage. That said, I do have a Hornady LNL already. Would I be better off going with a single stage or just get new dies for my LNL?

 

Thank you for all the help. Sorry for the completely noobish questions. Feels like I'm getting into a completely new world as I look into rifle reloading from 9mm reloading.

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Tough question to answer, everybody's opinion will vary.  3Gun shooting can include some longer ranges and that means good brass could be a benefit, luckily you are only shooting at steel and not for group size.  I like to reload and prepping is part of that, so I prep everything to a certain degree and I pick up range brass but I cull that crap out of it before it gets into the prep bucket, nothing bad looking makes the grade, no scratches, dings or really scuffed case heads.  

 

1&2) 500 cases times touching the brass 10+ times during prep.  That Lyman case prep is great, I started down the RCBS road but BOTH are good.  I stepped it up to the trimmer and case prep machine  RCBS, its pricey but I love it!  That whole process for me for this part alone is just under a minute per case (500 x ~50 seconds = ~7 hours) , now that does not include double checking case length every so often with a caliber just to make sure each piece is within my acceptable trim length.  Now, that is what I do for just my regular brass.  My Match brass takes even longer.  And this does not count the steps leading up to the trimmer.  There is lube and resizing, cleaning lube off (several different ideas there), do you tumble clean or pin clean.... and of course going backwards here but all the case inspection to begin with.  (Oh yeah, range pickup or buying Lake city brass and running into heavy primer crimps and having to swage the primer pocket, even more time, buying case gage and primer pocket check gauge, its a slippery slope)

 

2) WHY get a single stage, with the LNL (I bought the LNL inserts for my Rockchucker and love those but use those for my precise .308 and 6.5 creedmoor) I thought you could use that as a semi single stage like I use my Dillon 550

 

Now, cost of new equipment versus buying bulk .223 ammo.  At .25 to .30 cents per round, do you want to reload .223 for 3Gun or will bulk ammo get to what you need?  Do you LIKE to reload (Like I said, I do).  If not, then don't reload .223.  

 

 

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If I could buy bulk ammo easily I probably would go that route. Unfortunately I have to buy boxes of ammo at marked up price. Last I checked, it was maybe 20-30% more expensive than online prices. It unfortunately sounds like the case prep takes up quite a bit of time. Let's assume I am using range pick ups (mostly my own brass).

 

I clean using an ultrasonic cleaner. If I can do a lot of case prep before I get to the actual reloading portion or splitting it into separate phases, I don't mind it so much. Currently I deprime and clean my 9mm brass then store it for later reloading. If I can do something similar with the .223 I don't think I will mind as much, especially if I can do other things while prepping.

 

I was looking at the World's Finest Trimmer in addition to the Lyman case prep. 

https://littlecrowgunworks.com/product/worlds-finest-trimmer-wft/?v=7516fd43adaa

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1 hour ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Can you order, bulk, on-line, and have them ship it to you ?

 

Or, a local club member ?

I can try to split cases with local club members I guess. The problem is the FOID laws make it near impossible to find someone who will ship it to me since I can't get a FOID as a nonresident.

 

I'm going to see the prices at one of my stores tomorrow though. I might just have to pricematch my store purchases against an online retailer. I figure tax and shipping should wash out to be about the same.

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Four to five hours in a vibratory cleaner with crushed walnut shell media cleans up the brass really well - unless it's been there awhile in the weather and turned really dark.

 

I pick up every piece of .223 brass I find at the range.  I've never had a case separation (in 40 years of reloading) but I have had some split necks/shoulders (that stuff becomes .300 BO brass).

 

Use a good consistent metering powder like H335 or BLC2.  Makes for a faster reloading session.

 

I use a single stage press and RCBS X dies and usually only trim the range brass or a batch of brass I buy (done that a couple times in the last few years).

 

I've never found that cases have to be spotless inside.  

 

Good luck.

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What dies

6 hours ago, M1A4ME said:

Four to five hours in a vibratory cleaner with crushed walnut shell media cleans up the brass really well - unless it's been there awhile in the weather and turned really dark.

 

I pick up every piece of .223 brass I find at the range.  I've never had a case separation (in 40 years of reloading) but I have had some split necks/shoulders (that stuff becomes .300 BO brass).

 

Use a good consistent metering powder like H335 or BLC2.  Makes for a faster reloading session.

 

I use a single stage press and RCBS X dies and usually only trim the range brass or a batch of brass I buy (done that a couple times in the last few years).

 

I've never found that cases have to be spotless inside.  

 

Good luck.

I heard a lot about the X-Dies, was considering those. What crimp die are you using, if any? Also, I read that some people are throwing a neck sizer die before the X die?

 

Also, what prep/trim tool are you using? It looks like case prep isn't as intimidating as I initially thought it was, it'll just take a bit more time.

Edited by SlvrDragon50
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No crimp.  Never have crimped on the M1A/M1 Garand, the assorted semi auto deer rifles or the AR15's.

 

I used to use a Forster case trimmer.  Wore out the cutting head, had some trouble finding another one, bought a Lee trimmer set up that I run with a battery operated drill and stuck with it for the last few years.  I go through cutter heads on the Lee a couple times a year (when they get too dull to use on the .223 I write .30 only on them and put them with the .308 and .30-06 case trimmer stuff.)

 

I've read, on other forums, that folks use the .308/.30-06 X dies and have seen a reduction in the need to trim as often.  I don't keep track of how many times I reload brass so I can't say for sure it works - std. dies vs. X-dies.

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23 hours ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

If I could buy bulk ammo easily I probably would go that route. Unfortunately I have to buy boxes of ammo at marked up price. Last I checked, it was maybe 20-30% more expensive than online prices. It unfortunately sounds like the case prep takes up quite a bit of time. Let's assume I am using range pick ups (mostly my own brass).

 

I clean using an ultrasonic cleaner. If I can do a lot of case prep before I get to the actual reloading portion or splitting it into separate phases, I don't mind it so much. Currently I deprime and clean my 9mm brass then store it for later reloading. If I can do something similar with the .223 I don't think I will mind as much, especially if I can do other things while prepping.

 

I was looking at the World's Finest Trimmer in addition to the Lyman case prep. 

https://littlecrowgunworks.com/product/worlds-finest-trimmer-wft/?v=7516fd43adaa

I like the trimmer idea and might have gone that way had it been around when I started, simple and takes error issues out of the equation.  

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1 hour ago, M1A4ME said:

No crimp.  Never have crimped on the M1A/M1 Garand, the assorted semi auto deer rifles or the AR15's.

 

I used to use a Forster case trimmer.  Wore out the cutting head, had some trouble finding another one, bought a Lee trimmer set up that I run with a battery operated drill and stuck with it for the last few years.  I go through cutter heads on the Lee a couple times a year (when they get too dull to use on the .223 I write .30 only on them and put them with the .308 and .30-06 case trimmer stuff.)

 

I've read, on other forums, that folks use the .308/.30-06 X dies and have seen a reduction in the need to trim as often.  I don't keep track of how many times I reload brass so I can't say for sure it works - std. dies vs. X-dies.

Read lots of positive reviews on X-dies including someone who actually did keep count and got ~15% increase in longevity. I will probably get the X-dies if it means I don't have to trim as often, my time is worth more than $30-40 over years.

 

Are all cutters going to wear out? I'm more hesitant to get the World's Finest Trimmer if I'm going to have to spend $70 every time the cutter wears out. Or are the cutters standardized? Saw RCBS has some for <$20.

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The cutter head on the forstner lasted for almost 20 years.  The ones on the Lee hand/drill operated units don't last too long - but they are cheap.

 

I have a bench out front of my garage.  Even on a 40 F day if the sun is shiny and the wind is out of the north, that bench (south side facing the sun) is warm enough I sometimes have to pull my jacket off in the afternoon.  I sit out there and sort brass, inspect brass, trim/chamfer/deburr brass.  I get a lot of brass work done in the winter.  Sitting out on the bench using that drill to trim the brass is easy.  I'm retired.  I get up and let the dogs out of the pen for some petting/treats every so often.  Life is good.

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7 hours ago, M1A4ME said:

The cutter head on the forstner lasted for almost 20 years.  The ones on the Lee hand/drill operated units don't last too long - but they are cheap.

 

I have a bench out front of my garage.  Even on a 40 F day if the sun is shiny and the wind is out of the north, that bench (south side facing the sun) is warm enough I sometimes have to pull my jacket off in the afternoon.  I sit out there and sort brass, inspect brass, trim/chamfer/deburr brass.  I get a lot of brass work done in the winter.  Sitting out on the bench using that drill to trim the brass is easy.  I'm retired.  I get up and let the dogs out of the pen for some petting/treats every so often.  Life is good.

Ahh gotcha. Well, reloading rifle is becoming a lot more attractive now. I'll have to make a spreadsheet of the things I need to buy. Looks like the prep tools are actually going to cost the most.

 

I don't mind paying near the same per round as bulk ammo if it performs much better.

 

Just watched Ultimate Reloader's review of the WFT. I think I'm gonna go that route for trimming! Always looking for a reason to use my Milwaukee tools :P  Though now I've been exposed to the Giraud Tri-way Trimmer and Trim-It II Case Trimmer Chamfer and Deburr which do additional steps after trimming.. I think those will allow me to skip the prep machine? Only thing it doesn't do is swage the primer pocket.

Edited by SlvrDragon50
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Not all brass requires swaging the primer pocket.  And if it does, you only have to do it once.  I have the RCBS kit that installs in the reloading press.  I use the swaging attachment (fits into the ram arm like a shell holder) to check the brass while sorting it or when trimming it.  If the tip won't fit in the pocket pretty far, I set that brass aside till I get enough to make it worth sitting down to "fix" it.  If the pocket needs swaged, the tip won't begin to insert.  If the pocket is just tight (new piece of brass) then the tip will go in, maybe not all the way, but fairly far into the primer pocket.

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WFT works great. I lay my Milwaukee 18v drill on its side and run new-to-me cases through it. About 5 seconds per case.

I use Lyman prep center for chamfer and debur. Just about 1-2 seconds each step per case. Easiest of all prep steps.

Also use x-dies. Size first time in regular FL die. Trim once to 1.750", adjust x-die to same length and never trim those cases again. For .223 that works fine. For .30-06 I don't like the friction on the case neck even with the x-die. So I removed the sizing button on the x-die, and after the x-die I run the case through a Lyman neck sizer with carbide sizing button, does not need lube inside the neck and works fantastic.

I use to hand wipe lube off after each case after fully reloaded. After reading about extensive testing I now run loaded rounds through clean corn cob in vibratory tumbler for 15-20 minutes.

First Time
- universal decapping
- wet tumble
- lube with Imperial sizing wax
- full length size
- trim with WFT
- chamfer and debur on Lyman center
- Dillon super swager if crimped primer pockets
- uniform primer pocket depth
- prime
- charge with powder
- Seat bullet
- tumble in corn cob to remove lube

THEREAFTER
- universal decap
- wet tumble
- size and prime on press with x- die
- charge
- seat bullet
- tumble to remove lube

I have extremely few cases fail with split necks these days. I lose more at the range (2%) than from case failure. I use mixed range pickup cases for plinking ammo (55 gr FMJ), and once fired LC for all match ammo.

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Yea, I saw those swaging dies. Hornady had a really nice kit for the LNL for ~$80.

 

This is what I'm looking at right now. I've heard nothing but good things about the Giraud Triway. I'm still unsure what route I want to go with the primer pocket though. Also have no clue what I want to do with bullets. I'll probably just get Hornady since I don't think I'll shoot beyond 200 yards regularly.

 

PMA6eap.png

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3 hours ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

Yea, I saw those swaging dies. Hornady had a really nice kit for the LNL for ~$80.

 

This is what I'm looking at right now. I've heard nothing but good things about the Giraud Triway. I'm still unsure what route I want to go with the primer pocket though. Also have no clue what I want to do with bullets. I'll probably just get Hornady since I don't think I'll shoot beyond 200 yards regularly.

That Hornady LNL swaging looks nice and faster than my dillon swager but get one of these as well.  I check 10 in a row than spot check but if they are military crimp, I check them all.  

BALLISTIC TOOLS - SWAGE GAGE™ PRIMER POCKET GAUGE

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Just now, Banacek said:

That Hornady LNL swaging looks nice and faster than my dillon swager but get one of these as well.  I check 10 in a row than spot check but if they are military crimp, I check them all.  

BALLISTIC TOOLS - SWAGE GAGE™ PRIMER POCKET GAUGE

Oh that's neat. So going along with the lines of what M1A4ME said, you could just use that pocket gauge when sorting .223 into a military crimp vs non-military crimp. Will probably get that since I'm alway sorting my brass then I get range pick ups. Don't think I will sort by headstamp though.

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Just now, SlvrDragon50 said:

Oh that's neat. So going along with the lines of what M1A4ME said, you could just use that pocket gauge when sorting .223 into a military crimp vs non-military crimp. Will probably get that since I'm alway sorting my brass then I get range pick ups. Don't think I will sort by headstamp though.

OK but that means you already deprimed the case and if you are just sorting brass than you might want to add a Lee universal decapping die if its not already on your lists somewhere.  Some guys (not me but I might in the future) decapp and then clean the cases especially if they use wet media since it does a great job on primer pockets.  

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1 minute ago, Banacek said:

OK but that means you already deprimed the case and if you are just sorting brass than you might want to add a Lee universal decapping die if its not already on your lists somewhere.  Some guys (not me but I might in the future) decapp and then clean the cases especially if they use wet media since it does a great job on primer pockets.  

Yup, I usually deprime first then throw it into my ultrasonic cleaner!  I could just use the X-Die couldn't I? Or would it probably be a bad idea since the cases would be dirty?

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1 minute ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

Yup, I usually deprime first then throw it into my ultrasonic cleaner!  I could just use the X-Die couldn't I? Or would it probably be a bad idea since the cases would be dirty?

X-Die is full length sizing die, correct?  If so, then you have to lube the cases and why lube cases you are going to sort and possibly get rid of.  Not sure though,  I had once looked into the X-Die but the one thing about that is you are assuming you get all YOUR brass back when done shooting when I would rarely expect that unless  I was shooting a bolt gun.  

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4 minutes ago, Banacek said:

X-Die is full length sizing die, correct?  If so, then you have to lube the cases and why lube cases you are going to sort and possibly get rid of.  Not sure though,  I had once looked into the X-Die but the one thing about that is you are assuming you get all YOUR brass back when done shooting when I would rarely expect that unless  I was shooting a bolt gun.  

 Ahh gotcha. Yes, they make a small base and a full length X-Die, but I'll probably get the full length.

 

You're right though, I am going to be picking up range brass, and it's highly likely that I will get other peoples' brass as well as my own. I guess I'll find myself trimming every piece of brass then and might as well just get the cheaper die set. I'll probably just get the standard RCBS Full Length Die Set. If I am reading this correctly, the full length sizer die should expand the case mouth so I don't need to expand the neck while dropping the powder into the case.

 

I can't decide if I want to get a second powder drop for loading rifle or if I just want to get another Hornady Powder Drop Die. I have a PTX in my current powder drop so I don't want to have to deal with constantly messing around with that when switching back and forth.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/231522/hornady-quick-change-powder-die

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6 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

 Ahh gotcha. Yes, they make a small base and a full length X-Die, but I'll probably get the full length.

 

You're right though, I am going to be picking up range brass, and it's highly likely that I will get other peoples' brass as well as my own. I guess I'll find myself trimming every piece of brass then and might as well just get the cheaper die set. I'll probably just get the standard RCBS Full Length Die Set. If I am reading this correctly, the full length sizer die should expand the case mouth so I don't need to expand the neck while dropping the powder into the case.

 

I can't decide if I want to get a second powder drop for loading rifle or if I just want to get another Hornady Powder Drop Die. I have a PTX in my current powder drop so I don't want to have to deal with constantly messing around with that when switching back and forth.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/231522/hornady-quick-change-powder-die

It all goes back to how much you are reloading and how much time you have on your hands.  When  I was younger and money was tighter, I went with the hassle of swapping out my powder drop for each caliber BUT I would reload ALL the brass I had for that caliber and would be "done" for awhile and swap it back.  Now, I swap back and forth so much in my reloading room that I have a powder drop for each caliber and a powder baffle in all of them, etc.  ALSO, what powder do you plan on using because my favorite powder (Varget) does not meter well in my dillon powder drop, so I switched to CFE 223 but I only use that for my 3Gun and plinking ammo.  For prairie dog shooting at distance, I go back to my RCBS chargemaster and meter each powder drop.  I do not have experience with your Hornady LNL powder drop (I do have one but never use it anymore) to know if / what powders bridge and do not meter consistently.  

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3 minutes ago, Banacek said:

It all goes back to how much you are reloading and how much time you have on your hands.  When  I was younger and money was tighter, I went with the hassle of swapping out my powder drop for each caliber BUT I would reload ALL the brass I had for that caliber and would be "done" for awhile and swap it back.  Now, I swap back and forth so much in my reloading room that I have a powder drop for each caliber and a powder baffle in all of them, etc.  ALSO, what powder do you plan on using because my favorite powder (Varget) does not meter well in my dillon powder drop, so I switched to CFE 223 but I only use that for my 3Gun and plinking ammo.  For prairie dog shooting at distance, I go back to my RCBS chargemaster and meter each powder drop.  I do not have experience with your Hornady LNL powder drop (I do have one but never use it anymore) to know if / what powders bridge and do not meter consistently.  

I have absolutely no clue what powder I'm going to use! I've heard great things about CFE223. I can get H335 locally as well. I'm currently using Shooters World Clean Shot for 9mm which I believe is a spherical powder. I'm not planning to make a primer or powder order anytime soon for 9mm stuff so I'll probably just buy rifle powder + primers locally.

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