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PCC red dot. Which one?


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I have a question for you guys with an astigmatism.  I’ve tried many red dots and never liked the big flare I was seeing in them, regardless of who made it.  I went from brand to brand and nothing has looked the way I hear them described by others and I’m thinking, what the heck are these guys getting out of this that isn’t working for me!? Come to find out, I have an astigmatism that screws up what the dot is supposed to look like and the problem is far worse in bright sunlight.

 

 After speaking with a really well known shooter, he tells me he has the same issue and runs an etched reticle 1X optic.  I don’t have this issue with the low power variables I use on my 3G rifles, so his approach makes sense.  Anyone here running etched reticle 1X or low power (1-4X) on your PCC for this reason?

 

MB

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I am near-sighted and run a Primary Arms 1X Cyclops Prism optic on my 5.56 because I can focus it to my eye and I don't wear corrective lenses when shooting a pistol, as the front sight is in the 'sweet spot' for my natural vision.  So for 2-gun shoots, both guns work for no corrective lenses.  On my PCC's, I have red dots and wear corrective lenses because I'm usually just shooting the PCC, so with my correctives I can just focus on the target and bring the dot onto it, so correctives help for distance.

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1 hour ago, RAVAGE88 said:

I have a question for you guys with an astigmatism.  I’ve tried many red dots and never liked the big flare I was seeing in them, regardless of who made it.  I went from brand to brand and nothing has looked the way I hear them described by others and I’m thinking, what the heck are these guys getting out of this that isn’t working for me!? Come to find out, I have an astigmatism that screws up what the dot is supposed to look like and the problem is far worse in bright sunlight.

 

 After speaking with a really well known shooter, he tells me he has the same issue and runs an etched reticle 1X optic.  I don’t have this issue with the low power variables I use on my 3G rifles, so his approach makes sense.  Anyone here running etched reticle 1X or low power (1-4X) on your PCC for this reason?

 

MB

Everybody's astigmatism is different, so it's hard to generalize.  Also, it depends what you're using the gun for and how much distance you have to deal with.

 

I run red dots on rifles for Steel Challenge and PCC. They allow me fast target acquisition.  For me, the Holosun 510c does the best in terms of crispness of the reticle, to the point that I can make 100 yard hits with it.  I also have used a Vortex UH-1 successfully here.  I have more trouble with Aimpoints, for some reason.  In general, I think red dots work better here than holographic sights.

 

OTOH, as an experiment I put the UH-1 on my AR-10 and took it to the long range pit at my club.  I went 7 for 7 on the steel targets at 200 yards, and had no trouble holding a proper aim to get hits.  Then I switched to the steel targets at 300 yards, went 0 for 3, had no prayer of seeing where the shots were missing, so I just put the scope back on the rifle.  Younger eyes might not have had a problem...

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I had the same issue before corrective surgery. The short answer is: Yes, but not on a PCC.

 

For my 556 guns, sure, but I still run red dots on my SBR's and PCC's. 

 

Get a 2 MOA dot and then if you want it larger...turn the brightness up. I've never come across a USPSA target that was so small as to be effected by 1/4 MOA flare issue. The time penalty for giving up unlimited eye relief just isn't worth it.

 

That said, try an Eotech or Vortex huey. The true holograph will distort less than a projected/emitted LED like most RDS's

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6 hours ago, Acer2428 said:

Get a 2 MOA dot and then if you want it larger...turn the brightness up. I've never come across a USPSA target that was so small as to be effected by 1/4 MOA flare issue. The time penalty for giving up unlimited eye relief just isn't worth it.

 

My experience has been a bit different, which may just mean I have a different issue with astigmatism than you do.  For me, the problem with something like an Aimpoint isn't that the reticle flares but that it appears as a string of dots, some brighter than others.  Up close, no issue, but at farther targets figuring out which dot to use can be a problem.

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17 hours ago, RAVAGE88 said:

I have a question for you guys with an astigmatism.  I’ve tried many red dots and never liked the big flare I was seeing in them, regardless of who made it.  I went from brand to brand and nothing has looked the way I hear them described by others and I’m thinking, what the heck are these guys getting out of this that isn’t working for me!? Come to find out, I have an astigmatism that screws up what the dot is supposed to look like and the problem is far worse in bright sunlight.

 

 After speaking with a really well known shooter, he tells me he has the same issue and runs an etched reticle 1X optic.  I don’t have this issue with the low power variables I use on my 3G rifles, so his approach makes sense.  Anyone here running etched reticle 1X or low power (1-4X) on your PCC for this reason?

 

MB

Mine always develops a tail, or looks more like a 8 on an angle.

 

I have found the the smaller the dot, the better.

 

I would recommend the holosun 510c because of the small dot, also the ring doesn't seem to be affected as bad as dots do.

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Thanks Guys, very good info.  While I dig through a few things to try (based on your responses), I've put the Eotech EXPS 2 back on for an upcoming local match.  It is better dot quality for me than the red dots are.  I'll be in Vegas for Safariland Expedition and know a few guys with the Holosun; would like to look through one in the bright daylight out there and compare to the Eotech.

 

MB

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2 hours ago, RAVAGE88 said:

Thanks Guys, very good info.  While I dig through a few things to try (based on your responses), I've put the Eotech EXPS 2 back on for an upcoming local match.  It is better dot quality for me than the red dots are.  I'll be in Vegas for Safariland Expedition and know a few guys with the Holosun; would like to look through one in the bright daylight out there and compare to the Eotech.

 

MB

I'd be curious to hear how differently the Eotech compares to the Holosun for you.  Another suggestion I'd recommend is trying somebody's optic who has a larger dot on it than a smaller one.  Try something in the 6-8moa range.  Larger dots are much crisper to my eye than smaller ones.  As others have pointed out, though, it seems like when it comes to astigmatism, everybody's eye is different.

 

As far as your question regarding going with a 1x vs. a dot... I personally wouldn't choose that route--you're giving up too much eye relief and the ability to shoot with an imperfect cheek weld--but if that's what you need to do then that's what you need to do.  Before going the prism route, I'd at least consider a Triji 1-4x Accupoint.  It's heavier and way more expensive, but prism scopes are heavy by nature as well, and you'll get a little more versatility with the 1-4x, as well as a clean sight picture and reticle which I like.  Also, if you end up finding a better option down the road you can always pull it off the PCC and throw it on a rifle.

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20 hours ago, jkrispies said:

I'd be curious to hear how differently the Eotech compares to the Holosun for you.  Another suggestion I'd recommend is trying somebody's optic who has a larger dot on it than a smaller one.  Try something in the 6-8moa range.  Larger dots are much crisper to my eye than smaller ones.  As others have pointed out, though, it seems like when it comes to astigmatism, everybody's eye is different.

 

As far as your question regarding going with a 1x vs. a dot... I personally wouldn't choose that route--you're giving up too much eye relief and the ability to shoot with an imperfect cheek weld--but if that's what you need to do then that's what you need to do.  Before going the prism route, I'd at least consider a Triji 1-4x Accupoint.  It's heavier and way more expensive, but prism scopes are heavy by nature as well, and you'll get a little more versatility with the 1-4x, as well as a clean sight picture and reticle which I like.  Also, if you end up finding a better option down the road you can always pull it off the PCC and throw it on a rifle.

Thanks JKrispies, I appreciate the input....very helpful.  I looked through a six MOA and, as I recall, I saw a larger version of the tilted figure eight (that looks like a flare with the smaller dots).  Going back to the Eotech has helped, but was thinking last night I'll be able to find a Holosun at SHOT instead of waiting til March.  I'll also hunt down other larger dot sights for a better comparison.

 

Thanks again,

MB

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On the other end if considering a 1X Prism, the Primary Arms 1X Cyclops has quite a generous eye relief and 'box', and the field of view as far as how much 'tube' you feel is actually better than a lot of red-dot scopes, as the image takes up the whole rear surface.  

 

Cyclops.jpg

 

But....the reticle when illuminated will not get as bright as an LED in a regular red dot, and yeah you still have a quicker acquisition and bigger, more forgiving eye box with a regular red dot.

 

Also, how is your vision, in particular distance?  Do you wear any correctives or contacts?  I've found that with my correctives for distance, as long as I concentrate on the target itself and just move the dot over it, I don't notice if the dot is super sharp of has some tail to it.  Much like if it was a laser....even if it's fuzzy and not a perfect little circle, I know that if it's on it'll hit.  Essentially, you may be putting too much emphasis into dot sharpness for the purposes of PCC. 

Edited by MoRivera
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2 hours ago, MoRivera said:

On the other end if considering a 1X Prism, the Primary Arms 1X Cyclops has quite a generous eye relief and 'box', and the field of view as far as how much 'tube' you feel is actually better than a lot of red-dot scopes, as the image takes up the whole rear surface.  

 

But....the reticle when illuminated will not get as bright as an LED in a regular red dot, and yeah you still have a quicker acquisition and bigger, more forgiving eye box with a regular red dot.

 

Also, how is your vision, in particular distance?  Do you wear any correctives or contacts?  I've found that with my correctives for distance, as long as I concentrate on the target itself and just move the dot over it, I don't notice if the dot is super sharp of has some tail to it.  Much like if it was a laser....even if it's fuzzy and not a perfect little circle, I know that if it's on it'll hit.  Essentially, you may be putting too much emphasis into dot sharpness for the purposes of PCC. 

 

FWIW, I use the outer circle of the Holosun 510c as my aiming reticle most of the time, as my target is a USPSA paper or steel target.  Don't need angle of gnat's eyelash accuracy, except for distant targets, where I switch to the center dot.  Generally just quick and dirty shooting for the vast majority of hits.

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11 minutes ago, STIboy said:

 

FWIW, I use the outer circle of the Holosun 510c as my aiming reticle most of the time, as my target is a USPSA paper or steel target.  Don't need angle of gnat's eyelash accuracy, except for distant targets, where I switch to the center dot.  Generally just quick and dirty shooting for the vast majority of hits.

65moa circle is too coarse, you’re not able to shoot as soon as possible because you are centering up a big circle. You can pull the trigger as soon as the dot appears on target or steel sooner with smaller dot. If you put the 510c in manual mode and turn brightness up to make it starburst, it’s bigger than 2moa

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On 1/13/2019 at 11:29 AM, HoMiE said:

65moa circle is too coarse, you’re not able to shoot as soon as possible because you are centering up a big circle. You can pull the trigger as soon as the dot appears on target or steel sooner with smaller dot. If you put the 510c in manual mode and turn brightness up to make it starburst, it’s bigger than 2moa

 

I have the Eotech XPS2, but it's the same process for the Holosun 510.  For targets at 7 yards or less, I use the BOTTOM of the circle as the aiming point due to the height over bore offset.  I do NOT center the target in the big circle.  

 

For targets over 7 yards, I start using the dot.

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1 hour ago, gdboytyler said:

 

I have the Eotech XPS2, but it's the same process for the Holosun 510.  For targets at 7 yards or less, I use the BOTTOM of the circle as the aiming point due to the height over bore offset.  I do NOT center the target in the big circle.  

 

For targets over 7 yards, I start using the dot.

 

This man gets it. Also for 30+ yard targets you can use the top of the circle, depending on your zero. 

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1 hour ago, gdboytyler said:

 

I have the Eotech XPS2, but it's the same process for the Holosun 510.  For targets at 7 yards or less, I use the BOTTOM of the circle as the aiming point due to the height over bore offset.  I do NOT center the target in the big circle.  

 

For targets over 7 yards, I start using the dot.

I tried that but the distance from center dot to bottom circle is not perfect for every load and then you have deal with hold under and hold over so quicker for me to just use a single dot

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29 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I tried that but the distance from center dot to bottom circle is not perfect for every load and then you have deal with hold under and hold over so quicker for me to just use a single dot

I’m an open shooter so that’s what I plan to do as well.

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5 hours ago, Sarge said:

I’m an open shooter so that’s what I plan to do as well.

I used the Vortex UH-1 but being an open shooter, I found the sight picture to be a little to busy. Don't get me wrong, I could still use it but I found myself worrying about what part of the optic to focus on, so I went back to the MRO. I struggle between what optic I want to go with this season. Both the dot and circle have their pros and cons.

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2 hours ago, BiggMike said:

I used the Vortex UH-1 but being an open shooter, I found the sight picture to be a little to busy. Don't get me wrong, I could still use it but I found myself worrying about what part of the optic to focus on, so I went back to the MRO. I struggle between what optic I want to go with this season. Both the dot and circle have their pros and cons.

 

FWIW, with the Holosun 510c you can switch between the circle/dot, circle, and dot reticles easily, so you can use whatever you want whenever you want.

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On 1/12/2019 at 1:01 PM, jkrispies said:

I'd be curious to hear how differently the Eotech compares to the Holosun for you.  Another suggestion I'd recommend is trying somebody's optic who has a larger dot on it than a smaller one.  Try something in the 6-8moa range.  Larger dots are much crisper to my eye than smaller ones.  As others have pointed out, though, it seems like when it comes to astigmatism, everybody's eye is different.

 

As far as your question regarding going with a 1x vs. a dot... I personally wouldn't choose that route--you're giving up too much eye relief and the ability to shoot with an imperfect cheek weld--but if that's what you need to do then that's what you need to do.  Before going the prism route, I'd at least consider a Triji 1-4x Accupoint.  It's heavier and way more expensive, but prism scopes are heavy by nature as well, and you'll get a little more versatility with the 1-4x, as well as a clean sight picture and reticle which I like.  Also, if you end up finding a better option down the road you can always pull it off the PCC and throw it on a rifle.

 

Circling back here with what I've found to resolve my astigmatism mismatch with traditional red dot sites.  As I knew would be the case, the EOTech EXPS 2 would be an improvement for me over the red dots, which I validated.  I just mounted a different EXPS 2 with Green reticle and it's hugely different, enough so that I consider it the resolution for me.  The green reticle is more crisp without any flaring, blooming, etc.  Thanks again to the guys that chimed in with your experiences, it went a long way to help up and running with my PCC.

 

MB

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/17/2019 at 1:41 PM, RAVAGE88 said:

 

Circling back here with what I've found to resolve my astigmatism mismatch with traditional red dot sites.  As I knew would be the case, the EOTech EXPS 2 would be an improvement for me over the red dots, which I validated.  I just mounted a different EXPS 2 with Green reticle and it's hugely different, enough so that I consider it the resolution for me.  The green reticle is more crisp without any flaring, blooming, etc.  Thanks again to the guys that chimed in with your experiences, it went a long way to help up and running with my PCC.

 

MB

So you are saying the green color works better with the astigmatism?

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