Draw speed

[old558]

20 hours ago, jrdoran said:

 

I have the SHOTMAXX-2 watch timer and it will pickup the dryfire initial trigger pull.  Using this you could set the par for the second target time and then get the time for the first target trigger pull.  

Thanks I will check into this.

[Prariedog]

One thing that helped me was to concentrate on driving my non-dominant hand faster in the draw. This had the affect of speeding up my dominant hand in the draw. It helped me quite a bit in getting my speed up. Combining this with dry practice was very helpful.

[old558]

On 4/11/2018 at 3:57 PM, BikerJon said:

This worked for me. 

 

I broke up the draw into pieces and worked on them individually.

 

First I set a par time of like 0.6 or so, and just work on reacting to the front of the beep, and get your hand to to gun. I did this for a few minutes. 

Then, 

Same par time, start with hand on gun, and draw to a target. I did this for a few minutes. Do NOT pull the trigger.

Then,

I put it all together, with a 1.0 sec par time, but do NOT pull the trigger. 

 

Why don't pull the trigger ? 

I will be too easy to cheat the drill. To pull the trigger before your sights are on the target. 

And

Once you get better, and can get your sights on the target in 0.8 the extra time will allow you to let the sights settle. This visual patience is also an important skill. 

Thanks Jon I practiced this tonight and found it really helps me push my speed.

[tanks]

On 4/15/2018 at 3:10 PM, old558 said:

I forgot to add that the friend that got me started shooting said if I just took my time and hit the target;s I would finish in the top half and that you can not miss fast enough. He was right. Probably why my draw is so slow ha ha. Take care and best of Luck

 

That is not quite true in USPSA. It is points divided by time (hit factor). Just to give you a personal example, it just happened that I shot the same classifier (09-04 Pucker Factor) two weeks in a row in two different clubs. A 40 point classifier. First week I shot 38 points in 5.41 seconds for a hit factor of 7.0240. Second week I shot 33 points in 4.44 seconds for a hit factor of 7.4324. While I was more accurate the first week because I was almost a second slower my less accurate score the second week was better (translated to an extra 4% overall).

 

Extrapolate that to a match and it could make a difference of several places in the overall match placement.

[HowardM]

I have recently been watching a lot of our M and GM shooters and noticed that the draw is slower the. Expected for people at that level but they all seem to be very dileberate in the grip 

[Nalle2491]

the average draw is anywhere between a second and a second in a half. A GM shooter usually can get the first shot off in less than a second.

 

[Blackstone45]

I think it's important not to sacrifice a good grip for a fast draw time, given that the draw is just the first couple of seconds of a stage, and a poor grip will affect your shooting for the entirety of that stage

[IHAVEGAS]

On 4/10/2018 at 10:13 PM, StuckinMS said:

Practice live at further distances, like 40 yards.  If you consistently practice at 10 yards you will become good at 10 yards, mix it up.  Stay after it, it will come.

 

I think I have the same draw at 3 yards as I do at 50. I think Jerry Miculek coined the term "25 yard draw" for folks that slow down the draw speed when they have a difficult first shot, there is no reason to do things any different that I know of. 

 

 

On 4/13/2018 at 7:05 PM, Jake Di Vita said:

 

Why don't you like rotating the whole arm from the shoulder? I have found this to be more consistent than rotating from the elbow for me (I think there are fewer variables with this method) and it doesn't appear to be any slower at all. I get a dry grip, set the angle of my elbow, then rotate my arm as a unit.

 

What type of holster if you do not mind? Am wondering about the best motion for a typical production rig.

 

3 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

I think it's important not to sacrifice a good grip for a fast draw time, given that the draw is just the first couple of seconds of a stage, and a poor grip will affect your shooting for the entirety of that stage

 

Hmm, next range visit I want to compare my fastest draw time to my match mindset draw time, I'm guessing that the difference will be something like 0.2 seconds. Would be interesting to know how others approach this and if they do draw slower in a match by how much. 

[Jake Di Vita]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

What type of holster if you do not mind? Am wondering about the best motion for a typical production rig.

 

Right now I'm using my old world shoot model cr speed race holster but I used the same strategy for the surrender draw when I shot production with a regular bladetech too.

[m-cz-shadow-2]

I took a class with Nick Saiti through secret weapon training.  He managed to take my draw time from 1.24 seconds to 1.09 seconds by eliminating excess movement.  To parrot what everyone else has been saying.  A big part of increasing my speed was actually slowing down.   After I had my pistol in my strong hand and was pushing out to present, I was pushing too hard, which caused me to over reach and would destabilize my sight picture.  I practiced pushing fast at the start and slowing into a more controlled finish in order to obtain sight picture faster with less excess movement caused by too much force.  I have since added it to my dry fire routine.  What I do is practice my draw in front of my curtain, and try to have my draw finish so that the end of my barrel touches the curtain but doesn't cause any movement in it.

[touji]

53 minutes ago, m-cz-shadow-2 said:

I took a class with Nick Saiti through secret weapon training.  He managed to take my draw time from 1.24 seconds to 1.09 seconds by eliminating excess movement.  To parrot what everyone else has been saying.  A big part of increasing my speed was actually slowing down.   After I had my pistol in my strong hand and was pushing out to present, I was pushing too hard, which caused me to over reach and would destabilize my sight picture.  I practiced pushing fast at the start and slowing into a more controlled finish in order to obtain sight picture faster with less excess movement caused by too much force.  I have since added it to my dry fire routine.  What I do is practice my draw in front of my curtain, and try to have my draw finish so that the end of my barrel touches the curtain but doesn't cause any movement in it.

 

That actually sounds like a really good drill, as I never thought about whether pushing the gun out too hard could disturb sight picture slowing everything down. I think my main downfall for my draw right now is getting the gun out of the holster. Anything from the class that addressed the initial grip/presentation?

[m-cz-shadow-2]

39 minutes ago, touji said:

Anything from the class that addressed the initial grip/presentation?

 

 

For me, I found in the class holster placement on the belt is very important.  Make sure that you can get a consistent repeatable grip on your beaver tail.  The initial grip Nick encouraged us to use was not scooping the gun up by the grip, but to come down on top of it placing the meat between your index finger and thumb into the beaver tail then gripping and pulling up.  This can be done at full speed, but again don't push down too hard forcing excess movement and wasting time.  Also Nick said he is a big fan of symmetry on the draw, so your weak hand should somewhat mimic your strong hand. Following this you bring your hands together as if you were going to clap at chest level, then push out.  Everything in this draw process can be done at full speed with the exception of pushing down for your initial grip, and then slowing down for the final presentation, if that makes sense 

[daytona955i]

I have had sub-second draws for A zone shots at 15 yards in DA.

 

That doesn't mean I have a consistent sub-second draw, which I think is where the claims start to fall apart.

 

You can't count on the stars to align for you on every stage.

 

I find I shoot a much better stage if I get a positive firm grip out of the holster. First shot is only one out of 8, 12, 18, 32, etc. 

 

There are so many times that you don't even draw directly to an target in competition that the metric is practically worthless except as a measurement of your own progress.

 

1.7 isn't bad and unless you are losing each stage by .2 seconds, I wouldn't sweat it.

 

That being said, you likely have an inefficiency in the draw somewhere, most of us do.

 

Try to break it down into multiple par times and see what's happening.

 

Are you reacting to the first tone of the beep?

 

Are you waiting for your weak hand to come to the gun?

 

Are you searching for the front sight?

 

Are you not getting to and the gun out cleanly?

[wdfwguy]

So, in a match situation, what's the average draw time of a good USPSA shooter.  Not Ben or Max, but an A or M classified guy.  Just looking for a live fire time to aspire to.

[Racinready300ex]

39 minutes ago, wdfwguy said:

So, in a match situation, what's the average draw time of a good USPSA shooter.  Not Ben or Max, but an A or M classified guy.  Just looking for a live fire time to aspire to.

 

That depends on a lot of factors. Most stages I don't just draw and shoot, I'll be drawing and moving to a position to shoot. Also the distance and difficulty of the target will effect the draw time. Draw time really doesn't seem help you stage time that much.

 

Sub one on easy targets is vary doable. When the shots get harder the draw speed should stay the same.(I know that's not what I said above) What I mean is the speed the hand gets to the gun and the speed the gun comes out should be the same. The sight alignment and trigger press is where the time gets added to ensure you get a good hit on the longer shots. If that makes sense.

[Rez805]

6 hours ago, wdfwguy said:

So, in a match situation, what's the average draw time of a good USPSA shooter.  Not Ben or Max, but an A or M classified guy.  Just looking for a live fire time to aspire to.

Plenty of competitors at all levels have been posting their videos online. It has probably been pointed out somewhere in this thread that pure draw speed is rarely the "be all/end all" for a stage.

One thing you might consider is looking up a few videos and using their beep as the your start. You might not be able to get a solid answer with respect to an exact time, but I think it might help give some perspective for different initial conditions (e.g., match condition field course/classifier vs practice vs dryfire)

Edited August 10, 2018 by Rez805

[Blackstone45]

Best way to practice the draw? I've tried breaking the draw down to parts and practising each individually. I've also practiced by setting a long-ish par time so I can take a long time to draw and present a good sight picture. Then I reduce the par time, essentially forcing me to draw faster. This way, I'm going by the 'slow is smooth and smooth is fast' mindset. However, I worry that in a match, without the time to slowly warm up, my draw will just fall apart.

[perttime]

With lots and lots of repetitions doing it rght, the chances of the draw falling apart diminish.

[blindmarksman]

draw speed isn't as important as you think it is in uspsa. steel challenge is a different story

[old558]

On 8/14/2018 at 12:58 PM, blindmarksman said:

draw speed isn't as important as you think it is in uspsa. steel challenge is a different story

Very true and my goal is to improve my speed for steel challenge. Lots of good info here and I very much appreciate it. I have my par time set at 1.2 sec. now and can be on target before my timer beeps in dry fire practice. Shooting at 20 yards my draw fie time is an average of about 1.5 now, still slow but I am slowly getting their. Thanks for all the help and support.

[SlvrDragon50]

It is important for classifiers though! My classifier scores often suck, but I keep up with A/B shooters in actual stages.

[Jay1957]

That explains a lot for my classifier scores. I just started shooting again in February after many years off. I always shoot in the B/C range during the matches, but consistently hit D or low C on classifier stages. Time to shift dry fire focus to the draw.

[SlvrDragon50]

On 8/24/2018 at 7:55 AM, Jay1957 said:

That explains a lot for my classifier scores. I just started shooting again in February after many years off. I always shoot in the B/C range during the matches, but consistently hit D or low C on classifier stages. Time to shift dry fire focus to the draw.

Same for me. I hit high C (1% from B), but that was only because I zeroed so many of my other classifiers. I usually keep up with the local A and Bs.

I discovered during practice this week that my draw and fire one shot was about 1.2-1.3 seconds on average (1.2s best) from about 7 yards into the center A zone. However, when I introduced taking a second shot, my draw slowed down to 1.5-1.6 seconds. Curious if this happened to anyone else? It would certainly make sense why my live fire is so much worse than my dry fire since there seems to be something going on subconsciously that affects the draw, perhaps being more meticulous in making sure the grip is correct for the follow up shot.

[MemphisMechanic]

On 8/24/2018 at 7:55 AM, Jay1957 said:

That explains a lot for my classifier scores. I just started shooting again in February after many years off. I always shoot in the B/C range during the matches, but consistently hit D or low C on classifier stages. Time to shift dry fire focus to the draw.

 

If you take 0.2 off your draw and 0.3 off your reload that’s a half second, and on a 6 second stage that is huge for your hit factor.

 

And it didn’t involve any attempt to “shoot faster” and wind up dropping more points.

 

Gunhandling skills are possibly the most important things to hone for classifiers.

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[CTJer]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

If you take 0.2 off your draw and 0.3 off your reload that’s a half second, and on a 6 second stage that is huge for your hit factor.

 

And it didn’t involve any attempt to “shoot faster” and wind up dropping more points.

 

Gunhandling skills are possibly the most important things to hone for classifiers.

 

This right here if Classification is important to you.

 

I went from a 1.7ish draw down to 1.15-20 at 7yds and took my reloads down from 2.5 to around 1.7-8.

 

Took my classifier scores from 'C' up to 'A' in practice.   (I still bomb them in matches.  Maybe I'm subconsciencly sandbagging)