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Trigger Control


Doublehelix

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On 5/28/2018 at 11:47 PM, Eureka1911 said:

I dry fire a lot. But the real issue is transferring that to live fire. Things change when the brain knows there is no BOOM coming. I do a drill now where you get one in the chamber and then drop the magazine. Fire that round and when you reset fire on the empty chamber . Basically alternating live and dry fire. This way the brain is seeing the right things half the time even with lots of booms mixed in. Seems to help when I the low lefts.

 

Yep when people would have trouble hitting what they want I always recommend they do that so they can feel themselves throwing the gun. 

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OP,

I have been working on the same thing as you.  Although changing grip and tension and finger placement on the trigger has helped, I have not found a secret formula.  Of course, the slower I pull the trigger, the better.  I am going to continue to work on it and in the meantime at matches I pick which targets are difficult for me and try to make myself pull the trigger slower on them.  I am hoping some others will chime in with some other tips that help.

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On 5/28/2018 at 1:39 PM, Ghorsley said:

I read a lot of posts on trigger control because apparently I’m not too good at it. Specifically trigger control drills.

Would someone please clarify how it’s possible to rapid fire when you are dry firing. The gun won’t go into battery without a half rack of the slide, so how are you able to simulate rapid fire? What am I missing.

 

thanks a lot

 

 

Not exactly sure what you are referring to with regards to your slide.  What type of pistol are you dry firing with?

Edited by CrashDodson
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If you are right handed and the front sight closes out to the left when you pull the trigger, then you are not pulling the trigger straight to the rear. Experiment with different trigger finger placements on the trigger until you learn what it feels like to pull the trigger straight to the rear. Your proof being no movement of the front sight.

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1 hour ago, Blackstone45 said:

Is it possible to do dry fire splits of 0.2-0.3s without any noticeable movement of the sights?

Excellent question.  I have been wondering the same thing.

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Excellent question.  I have been wondering the same thing.


With as little innate movement that is humanly possible, yes. Very difficult but possible.


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21 hours ago, SwedishMoose said:

 

Yep when people would have trouble hitting what they want I always recommend they do that so they can feel themselves throwing the gun. 

 

Reading a few posts, it seems as simple as a lot of folks do not see the sight lift when they need to and call the shot. Perhaps I am missing something. 

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6 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

Is it possible to do dry fire splits of 0.2-0.3s without any noticeable movement of the sights?

I would think this would depend some on the gun/trigger.  With a 2011 sure.  Doing .2 splits with a double action trigger without seeing the sights move at all...I dont know.  

 

I think also you need to think about what your trying to accomplish.  If your practicing trigger control with fast splits, those are going to be close range shots.  If the fiber stays in the rear notch your going to hit A's, if your aiming at the center of the A zone, out to probably 10 yards or so.  If your practicing trigger control at a simulated 30+ yards then the front sight movement becomes much more important, but your also not going to be slamming crazy splits at that distance.  

 

I think asking yourself what you see in the sights and what that would represent down range for the given distance you are simulating in your dry fire is the most important thing.  If you dont know what that hit would look like down range you should do something like @CHA-LEE sight deviation drill until you know what sight picture is required to get A hits at a given distance.  

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2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Reading a few posts, it seems as simple as a lot of folks do not see the sight lift when they need to and call the shot. Perhaps I am missing something. 

 

Seeing the sights lift as the shot fires is key. It took me a while before I was able to do that. But once you can follow the sights as they move (hopefully up) allows you to know when you pulled a shot. Hard to really describe, but once experienced it really is the key to shooting better.

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7 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

I would think this would depend some on the gun/trigger.  With a 2011 sure.  Doing .2 splits with a double action trigger without seeing the sights move at all...I dont know.  

 

I think also you need to think about what your trying to accomplish.  If your practicing trigger control with fast splits, those are going to be close range shots.  If the fiber stays in the rear notch your going to hit A's, if your aiming at the center of the A zone, out to probably 10 yards or so.  If your practicing trigger control at a simulated 30+ yards then the front sight movement becomes much more important, but your also not going to be slamming crazy splits at that distance.  

 

I think asking yourself what you see in the sights and what that would represent down range for the given distance you are simulating in your dry fire is the most important thing.  If you dont know what that hit would look like down range you should do something like @CHA-LEE sight deviation drill until you know what sight picture is required to get A hits at a given distance.  

These are all very good points.  I am trying to get to the point where I can pull the trigger as fast as I can (.15-.20 split speed pulling the trigger) and still hit the target.  Obviously difficulty of shot is a lot of it. I have 21 yards in my dry fire location and my gun does move some without pulling the trigger at that distance.  Sometimes it’s hard to tell if it is the slight random gun movement or if the trigger press itself is also causing some movement.  I agree calling shots is key, but for those of mere mortals who can’t call every shot perfect yet (I have trouble when I am shooting fast), do you have any recommendations?

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2 minutes ago, B585 said:

These are all very good points.  I am trying to get to the point where I can pull the trigger as fast as I can (.15-.20 split speed pulling the trigger) and still hit the target.  Obviously difficulty of shot is a lot of it. I have 21 yards in my dry fire location and my gun does move some without pulling the trigger at that distance.  Sometimes it’s hard to tell if it is the slight random gun movement or if the trigger press itself is also causing some movement.  I agree calling shots is key, but for those of mere mortals who can’t call every shot perfect yet (I have trouble when I am shooting fast), do you have any recommendations?

 

Splits and hitting the target are two different animals.  If you can pull the trigger in the teens that is fast enough but only needed on close range targets where the sights never leave the target.  Are you saying you cant hit A's ripping at a 7 yard target?  When you say pull the trigger as fast as you can and still hit the target, what exactly do you mean?  If you want to learn to rip on the trigger then bill drills are your friend.  If your having a hard time keeping the hits in the A zone on a 10 yard and in bill drill then things to focus on would be mostly in your grip.  Trigger freeze and your squeezing too hard with the strong hand, shots all over the place your likely not squeezing hard enough with the support hand.  Another issue that can cause problems when trying to shoot fast is what I call pulling the trigger with your whole hand.  As you pull the trigger you also increase grip pressure with your strong hand, this can cause problems and the drills to work on isolating your trigger finger can help.  Lots of dry fire while watching your sights.  A lot of people have sloppy grip technique in dry fire and then it shows on the range.  

 

If you want to pull the trigger as fast as you can and still hit the target at 21 yards thats not a reasonable goal in my opinion. Sounds like you might be doing more double tapping than shooting two shots.  The goal should be to shoot two rounds at the 21 yard target as quickly as your vision tells you you can.  There are a lot of things going on here besides just pulling the trigger.  On a 21 yard target I am going to be taking the slack out of my trigger during the presentation from the draw or transition, breaking the shot when my eyes tell me I can...taking the slack out of the trigger as the gun returns to the target and breaking the second shot when my eyes tell me I can.  You need enough dry fire so that your index is perfect, the gun goes where you look.  You need enough live practice time to know how your gun is going to track back to your point of aim. 

 

If I could go back in time and save myself hours of useless practice and money it would be to tell myself to learn to call your shots first.  Its all that really matters.  You learn to call your shots by knowing where a round is going to impact down range at different distances with different sight alignments.  Once you know that then you can start calling your shots by making shot calling important.  Its as simple as all the information is right in front of you, you have to do something with it.  Make sure your not blinking, shoot with both eyes open and teach your brain that seeing the sight lift is important.  For someone that says they cant see their sights lift I would recommend pointing your gun at the berm, not aiming at anything, and just pull the trigger fast.  For me its a flip book effect and an ah-ha moment.  Now you know what it looks like to see your sights.  Another drill that is critical to training shot calling for me is the 25 yard bill drill.  The target is far enough away that you need to focus more on the sights, and you will start to see more.  In dry fire I like to finish my sessions with a shot calling drill or match mode drill or whatever you want to call it.  I shoot a random array of targets and do my best to makeup anything less than an alpha or close charlie as quickly as possible.  When I am dry firing for speed I still register bad shots in my mind even if I dont make them up.  

 

Once you start getting better at calling your shots you will have the "that didnt feel right" moment when shooting a stage.  You either saw something, or felt something in the grip or trigger that wasnt right.  When you have that feeling you shoot again.  Still for me a lot of the time that processes slow enough that I am already on the next target or two and then have to come back to the target that didnt feel right for a makeup.  Watch a top level GM shoot and you will see them make up shots almost instantly.  I know I wont make it out of M class or be competitive at the GM level without being able to call my shots faster and its something I work on every day.        

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Quit worrying about trying for faster follow up shots.... start letting your mind seeing an acceptable sight picture for EACH shot dictate your pace that you pull the trigger. Through practice this pace will gradually speed up...  as you get used to seeing better. But just hitting a fast split (on well tuned gun that doesn't really bounce much), is a lot different than breaking that second shot as you see a sight picture that ensures the shot you are trying to make. Its not speed, its efficient vision. 

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I realize I didn’t make my self perfectly clear, but Crash you covered my questions.    Your comments on the last sentence of the first paragraph is one my issues.  I also wasn’t sure if it would be reasonable (with enough practice) to come to a 35 yard plate rack and be able to squeeze the trigger as fast as I can pull it and still be able to hit it 95 out of 100 times assuming my sight picture was perfect when I started to pull the trigger. Right now, I have to pull the trigger slower than full speed or I will most likely miss.  That’s what I call trigger control and what I believe the OP was referring to

 I appreciate all your comments and what you are saying makes sense.  Bill Drills, follow up shots, etc are a whole different subject.  I don’t what to lead this thread off the original topic but at least for myself and likely others who are still newer to this sport, gained a lot from your post.

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On 5/30/2018 at 11:24 AM, B585 said:

... in the meantime at matches I pick which targets are difficult for me and try to make myself pull the trigger slower on them.  I am hoping some others will chime in with some other tips that help.

 

Here’s an important thing to know right off the bat. You never grow out of that. There’s no “meantime” here. 

 

Experienced shooters will typically tell you they have 3 types of aiming:

 

* Target focused through the sights

* Blurry target but not razor sharp sight picture

 * Find the corners, crisp front blade, get it perfect.

 

The same is true for trigger presses:

 

* slap it as fast as you can work it, up close

* smooth press, keep the gun still, at distance

 

What happens as you progress is that you can do ALL OF THOSE THINGS much faster. What you percieve as a pretty sporty double-tap with .25-.30 between shots? That is something a GM can aim very precisely at abot 15 yards.

 

Keep doing what you’re doing. You’re on the right track.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, sfinney said:

Quit worrying about trying for faster follow up shots.... start letting your mind seeing an acceptable sight picture for EACH shot dictate your pace that you pull the trigger. Through practice this pace will gradually speed up.

 

@B585 listen to this. It’s on the money.

 

@IHAVEGAS has a similarly great point about calling your shots being what you need to focus on, but first you have to shoot enough that you stop blinking when the gun fires so that you can see the front sight lift in recoil.

 

Combining those, I’d suggest learning to grip the gun really Really REALLY REALLY hard is the most important thing you can work on.

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15 hours ago, B585 said:

... if it would be reasonable (with enough practice) to come to a 35 yard plate rack and be able to squeeze the trigger as fast as I can pull it and still be able to hit it...

 

It is not.

 

Watch the pros shoot on youtube. At that distance on such a target they’ll be much much slower than that.

 

Even on a MUCH closer 15 yard plate rack, you’re being mindful to work the trigger smoothly no matter how good you get.

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IMG_20180601_111700898.jpg.700d6a81878d65abe0e2cf787750dfdf.jpg

 

It seems like shooting this array at 10 - 25 yards is helping me with my front sight tracking. The zebra on the right seems to sort of outline the front sight and make it easier to track up and down, I try to maintain that tracking and alpha only discipline on all 3. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

IMG_20180601_111700898.jpg.700d6a81878d65abe0e2cf787750dfdf.jpg

 

It seems like shooting this array at 10 - 25 yards is helping me with my front sight tracking. The zebra on the right seems to sort of outline the front sight and make it easier to track up and down, I try to maintain that tracking and alpha only discipline on all 3. 

 

 

 

 

I had some "zebras" setup with no shoots instead of hard cover this morning.  I noticed tracking the sights on that target was easier than a wide open target.  

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On 3/30/2018 at 11:49 AM, Doublehelix said:

One of the drills he talks about is to point your sights at a blank white wall, do not aim at ANYTHING, and pull the trigger over and over and notice whether the front sight moves.

 

I would have put money that my sight does not move, and I would have LOST! It is very subtle, but it is moving slightly to the left (classic newbie trigger issue). I have been trying different finger placement with slightly more finger and different "styles" of pulls to get the sight to freeze, but this seems like an impossible task to get the sight to not move at all.

 

I'd bet the farm that you're not gripping as hard as is necessary with your support hand.

 

Sometimes when we get really laser focused on pressing the trigger carefully, the tendency is to relax, and sympathetically relax the grip.  Particularly the support hand grip.

 

You have to have at least enough pressure to counter the torque applied to the trigger during the press, and it follows that the more force applied to the trigger (when slapping or pressing fast), has to be countered in equal part by applying grip pressure in the appropriate places.  

 

Look for the low-hanging fruit, and I suspect you will find it in the support hand grip.

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14 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

It is not.

 

Watch the pros shoot on youtube. At that distance on such a target they’ll be much much slower than that.

 

Even on a MUCH closer 15 yard plate rack, you’re being mindful to work the trigger smoothly no matter how good you get.

You hit the nail on the head. At 15 yards, I noticed I had to start slowing down on the trigger  if I wanted to get one for one. I thought that was a deficiency in my trigger control  as I hear a lot of people say that they’re gun doesn’t move at all.  I realize the pros slow down for difficult shots but I wasn’t sure if that was because they were getting a better sight picture, slowing the speed of the trigger press, or both.  Knowing it is both helps realize that my trigger press at all out speed may not be as bad as I thought.

  

I just wanted to say thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread.  Crash, Memphis, of course BE, and others, I really learned a lot about realistic expectations of trigger press/control and feel like I gained a much better idea of where I should dedicate my resources for training....my low lying fruit.

 

FYI I have never talking about follow up splits, double tap, etc.

Edited by B585
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   On 5/28/2018 at 2:39 PM,  Ghorsley said: 

I read a lot of posts on trigger control because apparently I’m not too good at it. Specifically trigger control drills.

Would someone please clarify how it’s possible to rapid fire when you are dry firing. The gun won’t go into battery without a half rack of the slide, so how are you able to simulate rapid fire? What am I missing.

 

thanks a lot

 

 

Not exactly sure what you are referring to with regards to your slide.  What type of pistol are you dry firing with?

Edited Wednesday at 05:04 PM by CrashDodson

 

HK VP 9SK. So....my question is, when dry firing, how do you practice rapid fire if you have to rack the slide each time you pull the trigger.  Maybe whoever was talking about rapid fire “dry firing” was just pulling the trigger on an un cocked trigger. How does that help you

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I read a lot of posts on trigger control because apparently I’m not too good at it. Specifically trigger control drills.

Would someone please clarify how it’s possible to rapid fire when you are dry firing. The gun won’t go into battery without a half rack of the slide, so how are you able to simulate rapid fire? What am I missing.

 

thanks a lot

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