Load data for 9mm 147gr. coated bullets & CFE pistol

[Bench]

19 minutes ago, Droot said:

Chronographed multiple loads yesterday. Unique, WW 231, and CFE pistol. CFE had by far the best ES of 6 from a 3" Kimber micro 9, and a full size Kimber 1911 9mm.

 

David

Thanks, What projectiles were you pushing, coated, weight? And the load data for CFE?

 

John

 

[Droot]

124 nosler J HP, 5.0 CFE, 1.080 oal. Remington small pistol primer.

 

Crony numbers at home, going to try with SnS coated 147, 124 and 115 next.

 

Stay tuned.

 

Average Velocity. 

3 " barrel, 1066

5" barrel 1200

 

David

Edited April 8, 2018 by Droot

[ParaLarry]

Here’s my results with CFE Pistol:

 

Xtreme 147 grain plated hollow points

 

4.2 CFEPistol

First 10 M&P core 5”

Hi 916 Lo 849 Avg 892.9 pf 131

Second 10 M&P core 4.25 ported

Hi 890 Lo 845 Avg 873 pf 128

Third M&P Shield

Hi 854 Lo 797 Avg 824 pf 121

 

Oal was 1.145

 

Felt good and very accurate.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Redaye]

On 3/30/2018 at 11:45 AM, Redaye said:

Not sure where this load falls in max/min for Bayou w/ CFE. The starting point was based off of a round I was getting from a fellow shooter. Same bullet with Tite Group at 3.2gr. I acquired a large amount of CFE in a trade and felt compelled to use it up. Used the Hodgen data for lead and crossed my fingers and toes. I can tell you it works well for me. No problems and good accuracy, so far. So good. Regarding crimp? A much debated topic for 9mm. I don't bell much. Just enough to accept the bullet and measure .377 at the case mouth. Eventually, I'll go to Tite Group at 3.2gr as they seem to be very similar in performance, at least for my experience level. I haven't chrono'd these CFE rounds so, none of the above should be chiseled in stone. The Titegroup rounds were around 130 PF. I'm pretty new to this and shoot local, level 1 matches. Hope to chrono the CFE's soon and I'll post my results. 

OK Bench, I chrono'd a couple loads this weekend. Bayou 147 with 3.7 CFE and 3.2 Titegroup with 1.14 OAL from an M&P Pro, 5" barrel. (CCI / 500 primers)

BB 147 / 3.7gr CFE / 1.14 / CCI-500 = 5 shot average 884 fps = 129 PF

BB 147 / 3.2gr TG / 1.14 / CCI -500 = 5 shot average 921 fps = 135 PF

As I said before, I'll eventually go to Titegroup but, I inherited 8 lbs of CFE and I'm not gonna let it go to waste. Especially, since it looks like I'm hitting minor PF plus about 3%. I'd like a little more cushion so I'm probably going to step it up a grain at a time until I'm at 5-6% over min. Accuracy is good and the recoil is certainly manageable for somebody of my skill level. The recoil seems consistent with a slight rise, up and right but, very manageable and allows me to place a second shot quickly on target. Looks like I'll be able to step that TG load down a grain or two when I'm ready but, for now I'm happy with my CFE load and the Bayou 147. ie; It's a start, and my confidence level went up a bunch.

 

[Bench]

2 hours ago, Redaye said:

OK Bench, I chrono'd a couple loads this weekend. Bayou 147 with 3.7 CFE and 3.2 Titegroup with 1.14 OAL from an M&P Pro, 5" barrel. (CCI / 500 primers)

BB 147 / 3.7gr CFE / 1.14 / CCI-500 = 5 shot average 884 fps = 129 PF

BB 147 / 3.2gr TG / 1.14 / CCI -500 = 5 shot average 921 fps = 135 PF

As I said before, I'll eventually go to Titegroup but, I inherited 8 lbs of CFE and I'm not gonna let it go to waste. Especially, since it looks like I'm hitting minor PF plus about 3%. I'd like a little more cushion so I'm probably going to step it up a grain at a time until I'm at 5-6% over min. Accuracy is good and the recoil is certainly manageable for somebody of my skill level. The recoil seems consistent with a slight rise, up and right but, very manageable and allows me to place a second shot quickly on target. Looks like I'll be able to step that TG load down a grain or two when I'm ready but, for now I'm happy with my CFE load and the Bayou 147. ie; It's a start, and my confidence level went up a bunch.

 

Redaye, thank you for following through and to the point. Since I'm starting out and only bought 1# of CFE, I got 1# of TG and loaded up a bunch of Precision 147's with that. My first loads were at the Lyman's start data and all went very well on the range. At this point I think I'll be sticking with TG, I like that PF from your data. I don't have access to a chrono at this stage in my game so thanks for sharing!!

Edited April 10, 2018 by Bench

[Droot]

147 SnS coated.  4.2 CFE Pistol   OAL 1.150

AV 906

ES 27

SD 8

 

This was out of a 3.1" Micro 9.  Master Crony.

 

[IDescribe]

Bench, slower powders like CFE and heavy bullets are for SD, carbine, and subgun loads.  For USPSA minor, you will likely want a faster powder.  As far as making minor, you can drive that bullet WAY faster than minor.  People use CFE for major, though with lighter bullets.  

As to recoil, I can feel the difference between slower and faster powders easily with the same bullet at the same velocity if I'm looking for it.  Can't say I'd notice much once the shot timer chimed, though.    Recoil isn't why you should avoid CFE for minor, though.  You should avoid it because that's a light charge for such a heavy bullet, and you're getting an inefficient burn.  There's a reason most people use the same 6 or 8 powders for 9 minor.  TG is one of them.  I'd focus my efforts there if I were in your shoes.

 

 

 

[Bench]

3 hours ago, Droot said:

147 SnS coated.  4.2 CFE Pistol   OAL 1.150

AV 906

ES 27

SD 8

 

This was out of a 3.1" Micro 9.  Master Crony.

 

Thanks Droot. Another addition to the data book for trials.

[Bench]

2 hours ago, IDescribe said:

Bench, slower powders like CFE and heavy bullets are for SD, carbine, and subgun loads.  For USPSA minor, you will likely want a faster powder.  As far as making minor, you can drive that bullet WAY faster than minor.  People use CFE for major, though with lighter bullets.  

As to recoil, I can feel the difference between slower and faster powders easily with the same bullet at the same velocity if I'm looking for it.  Can't say I'd notice much once the shot timer chimed, though.    Recoil isn't why you should avoid CFE for minor, though.  You should avoid it because that's a light charge for such a heavy bullet, and you're getting an inefficient burn.  There's a reason most people use the same 6 or 8 powders for 9 minor.  TG is one of them.  I'd focus my efforts there if I were in your shoes.

 

 

 

Thanks IDescribe, I certainly do understand your shot timer comment...not much is going on at the cognitive level once the brain is in the GO mode regarding incidental receptive inputs. I've begun to load with TG and range time is tomorrow. What are the other 5 or 7 powders for 9 minor besides TG? Thanks!!

Edited April 11, 2018 by Bench
I read the his OP again...

[ParaLarry]

Latest results for Xtreme 147 gr plated

M&P Pro 5”

 

4.2 CFEPistol

Shots: 10 Average: 927 FPS SD: 13 FPS Min: 910 FPS Max: 950 FPS Spread: 40 FPS Power Factor Average: 136

 

4.3 CFE

Shots: 9 Average: 938 FPS SD: 17 FPS Min: 910 FPS Max: 959 FPS Spread: 49 FPS Powder Factor Average: 138

 

4.4 CFE

Shots: 9 Average: 949 FPS SD: 17 FPS Min: 922 FPS Max: 971 FPS Spread: 49 FPS Power Factor Average: 139

 

OAL 1.150

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bench]

10 hours ago, ParaOrdnanceLarry said:

Latest results for Xtreme 147 gr plated
M&P Pro 5”

4.2 CFEPistol
Shots: 10 Average: 927 FPS SD: 13 FPS Min: 910 FPS Max: 950 FPS Spread: 40 FPS Power Factor Average: 136

4.3 CFE
Shots: 9 Average: 938 FPS SD: 17 FPS Min: 910 FPS Max: 959 FPS Spread: 49 FPS Powder Factor Average: 138

4.4 CFE
Shots: 9 Average: 949 FPS SD: 17 FPS Min: 922 FPS Max: 971 FPS Spread: 49 FPS Power Factor Average: 139


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Thanks for the  great data. With those loads of CFE did you happen to notice if you were getting some over pressure signs in the primers?

Also, what was the OAL?

Edited April 11, 2018 by Bench

[IDescribe]

49 minutes ago, Bench said:

...did you happen to notice if you were getting some over pressure signs in the primers?

 

I meant to mention that having read your post on reading primers on the previous page and its responses.

 

Reading primers is largely for rifle with MUCH slower burn rate powders, where the increases in pressure per tenth of a grain are much less, and there's a legit progression of primer flow to read.  AND it's only good if you're experienced in that regard with that particular rifle.  You can't just go to a brand new rifle, look at a primer, and know what's going on.

Pistol powders, even SLOW burn rate pistol powders are actually super fast compared to rifle powders, and pressure jumps too much from one tenth of a grain to the next to see much progression, and you can go from a perfectly good looking primer to dangerously over-pressure with one small increase in powder.  If you see a primer's round edges start to flatten out toward the edge of the primer pocket, or you see cratering, you're too high, but you'd never want to wait for that to happen as a sign.  You might never see it.  You might go from looking fine to kaboom.

 

All you need to know about reading primers is that for it to be a reliable method of reading pressure, cartridges that use the same primer would also have to have the same max pressure.  But they don't.  Different calibers have different max pressures, and it's preposterous to think that a small pistol primer would know to start deforming at 21,500 PSI in .380 ACP, but know NOT to start deforming in .40 S&W until it reaches 35,000 ACP,.  Make sense?  It's woefully unreliable.  Don't try to use it.  If you see it, stop and lighten up the charge.  But don't rely on it for protection of your health or property.  You'd have only slightly worse luck reading tea leaves or chicken bones. 

 

[Bench]

7 hours ago, IDescribe said:

 

I meant to mention that having read your post on reading primers on the previous page and its responses.

 

Reading primers is largely for rifle with MUCH slower burn rate powders, where the increases in pressure per tenth of a grain are much less, and there's a legit progression of primer flow to read.  AND it's only good if you're experienced in that regard with that particular rifle.  You can't just go to a brand new rifle, look at a primer, and know what's going on.

Pistol powders, even SLOW burn rate pistol powders are actually super fast compared to rifle powders, and pressure jumps too much from one tenth of a grain to the next to see much progression, and you can go from a perfectly good looking primer to dangerously over-pressure with one small increase in powder.  If you see a primer's round edges start to flatten out toward the edge of the primer pocket, or you see cratering, you're too high, but you'd never want to wait for that to happen as a sign.  You might never see it.  You might go from looking fine to kaboom.

 

All you need to know about reading primers is that for it to be a reliable method of reading pressure, cartridges that use the same primer would also have to have the same max pressure.  But they don't.  Different calibers have different max pressures, and it's preposterous to think that a small pistol primer would know to start deforming at 21,500 PSI in .380 ACP, but know NOT to start deforming in .40 S&W until it reaches 35,000 ACP,.  Make sense?  It's woefully unreliable.  Don't try to use it.  If you see it, stop and lighten up the charge.  But don't rely on it for protection of your health or property.  You'd have only slightly worse luck reading tea leaves or chicken bones. 

 

LOL, thanks IDescribe...I've always been leery of chicken bones and tea leaves...so I"ll be sticking with load data from manuals to be on the safe side. Some of the CCI primers have shown bulging around the firing pin strike and that was what I've been watching, not flat like some of the range brass I've been picking up. All you've said makes sense!! Thanks.

[IDescribe]

51 minutes ago, Bench said:

Some of the CCI primers have shown bulging around the firing pin strike and that was what I've been watching, not flat like some of the range brass I've been picking up. 

 

Cratering is pressure causing the metal of the primer cup to flow up around the tip of the firing pin into the space between the firing pin and the hole in the breechface through which the firing pin passes.  How much pressure it takes to cause the metal of the primer cup to flow is dependent on how much empty space there is.  The larger the gap between the pin and the inner diameter of that hole in the breech face, the less pressure it takes to force the metal of the primer cup to flow into it. 

 

My CZ75 ShadowLine, with it's stock firing pin, would get cratering with loads well under SAAMI max pressure.  The minor cratering concerned me at first, but I was confident loads were safely under max pressure, and I learned to live with it.  Later, I replaced my firing pin with an aftermarket firing pin, and the cratering went away altogether.  I pulled the new pin back out and measured it against the stock pin, and the stock pin was a little smaller (don't remember exactly, a thousandth or two?) meaning it left a larger gap, meaning it took less pressure to force the metal of the primer cup to flow and crater.

Same loads, same pressures, different firing pins -- one firing pin shows pressure signs, and one doesn't.  Those pressure signs weren't caused by overpressure.  And if you're getting some minor minor cratering/bulging with CFE Pistol at 9mm minor loads, yours isn't being caused by overpressure either.   Don't sweat it.

[Bench]

5 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

Cratering is pressure causing the metal of the primer cup to flow up around the tip of the firing pin into the space between the firing pin and the hole in the breechface through which the firing pin passes.  How much pressure it takes to cause the metal of the primer cup to flow is dependent on how much empty space there is.  The larger the gap between the pin and the inner diameter of that hole in the breech face, the less pressure it takes to force the metal of the primer cup to flow into it. 

 

My CZ75 ShadowLine, with it's stock firing pin, would get cratering with loads well under SAAMI max pressure.  The minor cratering concerned me at first, but I was confident loads were safely under max pressure, and I learned to live with it.  Later, I replaced my firing pin with an aftermarket firing pin, and the cratering went away altogether.  I pulled the new pin back out and measured it against the stock pin, and the stock pin was a little smaller (don't remember exactly, a thousandth or two?) meaning it left a larger gap, meaning it took less pressure to force the metal of the primer cup to flow and crater.

Same loads, same pressures, different firing pins -- one firing pin shows pressure signs, and one doesn't.  Those pressure signs weren't caused by overpressure.  And if you're getting some minor minor cratering/bulging with CFE Pistol at 9mm minor loads, yours isn't being caused by overpressure either.   Don't sweat it.

Well, that puts an new light on things. Here I was concerned that I was getting over pressures even on "manual" loads. Thanks!! Would there be a difference with different primers? Probably not I'm guessing.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Bench

[IDescribe]

14 minutes ago, Bench said:

Well, that puts an new light on things. Here I was concerned that I was getting over pressures even on "manual" loads. Thanks!! Would there be a difference with different primers? Probably not I'm guessing.

 

There is a difference with different primers, but the softest ones are Federal, then Winchester.  CCI has one of the harder primer cups, so that's not the issue. 
 

[ParaLarry]

Thanks for the  great data. With those loads of CFE did you happen to notice if you were getting some over pressure signs in the primers?

Also, what was the OAL?

Fixed the post, OAL was 1.150

No primer signs.

I picked up 1lb of CFE from a prize table and wanted to see if I could get 145 power factor to match Federal 147 HST for training. Not gonna happen though; the increments in PF above 4.2 grains were already diminishing returns.

I will settle for 131 PF at 4.2 grains max load as it felt good, was very accurate and shot to the same point of aim as my standard load. And no noticeable smoke with plated bullets. Great for indoor matches.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bench]

4 hours ago, ParaOrdnanceLarry said:

Fixed the post, OAL was 1.150

No primer signs.

I picked up 1lb of CFE from a prize table and wanted to see if I could get 145 power factor to match Federal 147 HST for training. Not gonna happen though; the increments in PF above 4.2 grains were already diminishing returns.

I will settle for 131 PF at 4.2 grains max load as it felt good, was very accurate and shot to the same point of aim as my standard load. And no noticeable smoke with plated bullets. Great for indoor matches.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the update. Now betwen all that has been posted and what I've found elsewhere I just need to find what works for me.