Blitzkrieg Buffer ????

[sandrooney]

I got a PCC from a member here and it has a Blitzkrieg buffer system. It has a small spring behind the buffer spring. Anybody know what this is for? I am assuming it is for a little extra buffering. It just butts right into the buffer spring with nothing in between.

Thanks,

SR

[bmiller]

That is an attempt at the new hotness in recoil systems. Track down Maximundi here or on Facebook to fill you in.  Haven’t tried it, but according to Facebook the best thing since sliced bread.

[msg73]

It’s a wave spring.  They’re sprung around 25lbs and like you said, it’s for extra ‘buffering’.  Some put quarters in between it and the buffer spring. 

[sandrooney]

Thanks a lot.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Or take it out and try it to see if it feels better to you? Thanks, Eric

[sandrooney]

Thanks Eric. I will try that.

[Piracy85]

Ive done a lot of testing with that wave spring. a lot of it will change based on the gun. My pcc likes the Hydro buffer, AR10 spring and a 3/4" spacer. I didn't notice a difference with a wave spring, so i took it out. my buddies on the other hand love the wave spring with a similar setup to mine.

[L9X25]

The wave spring will help if you have a slightly under-sprung buffer spring.  If you have a correct, or too heavy, buffer spring the wave spring really does not come into play.  If you have a very over-sprung buffer, not even the Blitzkrieg will not come into play.  

[jtrump]

I purchased some Derlin recently and made spacers,  I tried 2 spacers with a wave spring in between,  I tried one spacer with the spring sitting on the bottom and when using the .308 carbine spring with a 139pf Load, I notice basically zero difference in feel of the gun.  My splits were the same, dot movement was the same.  You just can't lock the bolt back.   I plan to do some more experimenting with it in the future.   Maybe I don't have it setup quite right

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I have played around with the Blitzkrieg buffer setup a little bit. Right now what feels the best to me is the 308 JP rifle spring in the carbine buffer tube with the Blitzkrieg buffer. I will be trying some spacers and maybe a wave spring if I can borrow one. I like the 308 rifle spring setup since I can still lock the bolt back. I did try short stroking the bolt but the spacer I made was a little too long to reset the Hiperfire trigger. As for splits compared to my JP setup----they are the same for me. Thanks, Eric

[Piracy85]

If you dont want to waste your time with calculating spacer distances and really tuning the gun, pick up the Shooting innovations Recoil reduction system. It is a drop in system that does a damn good job of mitigating recoil and dot bounce. most importantly it gets rid of the annoying spring noise in the buffer tube.

[jtrump]

17 minutes ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: I have played around with the Blitzkrieg buffer setup a little bit. Right now what feels the best to me is the 308 JP rifle spring in the carbine buffer tube with the Blitzkrieg buffer. I will be trying some spacers and maybe a wave spring if I can borrow one. I like the 308 rifle spring setup since I can still lock the bolt back. I did try short stroking the bolt but the spacer I made was a little too long to reset the Hiperfire trigger. As for splits compared to my JP setup----they are the same for me. Thanks, Eric

 

So you actually use the rifle spring and not the 308 carbine spring eric?   Full rifle length tube or carbine length?

[Steve RA]

How does the stock JP unit work with a full length buffer tube in a 9mm ???  Or I guess I should say - will it work at all ??

[1911luvr]

How does the stock JP unit work with a full length buffer tube in a 9mm ???  Or I guess I should say - will it work at all ??

A rifle length tube requires a spacer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aircooled6racer]

1 hour ago, jtrump said:

 

So you actually use the rifle spring and not the 308 carbine spring eric?   Full rifle length tube or carbine length?

Hello: Carbine buffer tube with the JP rifle length 308 spring. Thanks, Eric

[cking]

unless that is a flat wire I don't think a carbine buffer, maybe on a extended length 9mm most  9mm buffers extend the head area not spring area, will hold a rifle length spring, are you sure the spring isn't going to solid before buffer bumper hits. If goes solid that will kill the spring. Spring will last a lot longer if you only take them to 90%, gives them room vibrate in..

Edited March 30, 2018 by cking

[sandrooney]

When I got the gun it had the wave spring and 6 quarters. The felt recoil was very harsh. I took out the quarters and it greatly reduced the felt recoil. I took out the wave spring and it didn't make a lot of difference. I am setting this up to be a dedicated steel gun so I am going for feel more so than dot movement. I have the weight down to 5lbs 10 oz. almost a pound and a half lighter than my JP GMR-15.  It is fun to shoot.

[jtrump]

9 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: Carbine buffer tube with the JP rifle length 308 spring. Thanks, Eric

Very interesting Eric,   I ordered both springs when I got  my blitz setup, and Have never pulled the rifle spring out of the original packaging to even try it.

[Startingover]

I am new to this, and I am trying to wrap my head around all of the mechanics, so I understand what I am doing, not just stabbing in the dark.

(I am approaching this in my mind, like setting up multi-rate spring-over shocks for an ATV, from when my son raced)

 

Is the short wave spring stiffer or softer than the other full length springs? 

 

 

[Aircooled6racer]

9 hours ago, cking said:

unless that is a flat wire I don't think a carbine buffer, maybe on a extended length 9mm most  9mm buffers extend the head area not spring area, will hold a rifle length spring, are you sure the spring isn't going to solid before buffer bumper hits. If goes solid that will kill the spring. Spring will last a lot longer if you only take them to 90%, gives them room vibrate in..

Hello: The Blitzkrieg buffer is longer than a carbine standard buffer. I checked the Blitzkrieg 9mm buffer and rifle spring by compressing them to see if the buffer would bottom out before the spring would coil bind. The wave spring that most are using is about 25lb spring where a 308 spring is about 15 1/2lbs or so. Thanks, Eric

[MikieM]

1 hour ago, Startingover said:

I am new to this, and I am trying to wrap my head around all of the mechanics, so I understand what I am doing, not just stabbing in the dark.

(I am approaching this in my mind, like setting up multi-rate spring-over shocks for an ATV, from when my son raced)

 

Is the short wave spring stiffer or softer than the other full length springs? 

 

 

 

The problem is, unlike your son's ATV, there are no shocks in our system to dampen the action of the spring. I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but these so-called recoil systems do little more than add to the strength of the spring that is already there. I'm talking about the ones that incorporate a small spring inside the buffer.

You'll notice that it is usually recommended these systems be used with less powerful buffer springs for best action. That stands to reason since adding one spring to another increases the tension when both are used together. A good example is an automotive valve spring. Engines oftimes use an inner and outer spring to increase valve seat pressure. 

I view the hydraulic buffers as only being slightly better. Although the idea seems sound I don't think it does enough. When the bolt/buffer goes back the hydraulic action of the buffer isn't actuated until the last few inches of the stroke.  At this point there may be some mitigation of the recoil impulse but I think it's too little too late and no mitigation of the recoil impulse is seen when the bolt/buffer begins it's return to battery. If memory serves, Colt developed a hydraulic buffer several years ago only to abandoned the effort. Cost may have been a factor, true, but it may not have met their expectation as to performance.  

To me the best system is one where the bolt and buffer is correctly weighted to accommodate the load that is chosen, and a buffer spring that allows the bolt/buffer to do its job, and no more. 

Only my opinion, of course.

  

 

[L9X25]

Let me expand a little on that you said...

 

The hydraulic buffer only "works" within the last inch of travel, and only if there is enough energy remaining for the hydraulics to dissipate.  If the spring has already absorbed all or most all of the energy, there is nothing left for the hydraulic to absorb, and you notice no difference.  That is the reason I have previously said that these buffer systems work best when the gun is slightly under-sprung.

 

On the topic of hydraulic buffers in general, they work.  When they are abandoned is usually because of cost, durability of their design, or profitability of producing them.  If you want evidence, look no farther than most medium/heavy machine guns used in the US military, I am told by weapon designers that the vast majority use a hydraulic buffer to reduce recoil, wear, and reduce the cyclic rates.  The system definitely works, and is durable, when implemented correctly.

[Startingover]

2 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: The Blitzkrieg buffer is longer than a carbine standard buffer. I checked the Blitzkrieg 9mm buffer and rifle spring by compressing them to see if the buffer would bottom out before the spring would coil bind. The wave spring that most are using is about 25lb spring where a 308 spring is about 15 1/2lbs or so. Thanks, Eric

I was assuming that the wave was stiffer.

It's being used similarly to a compressible bump stop in a suspension system.

Which doesn't apply here, because the travel and hit should always be the same 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Startingover

[MikieM]

In the larger sense I would agree with you. Recoil is dissipated on those larger guns, much like the shocks on a car. They operate in both directions. Our smaller versions, I believe, do not.  

[Patrick Scott]

Do you guys think hyd buffers have any effect on dot movement when the gun goes into battery?