teros135 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 28 minutes ago, CrashDodson said: Not sure how much all of you shoot....but shooting 40k a year pulling a handle fing sucks Norm doesn't seem to shoot much. he said above that it's mainly at an indoor range, no competitive matches. he doesn't show up in a Practiscore Competitor search. Mostly for fun, I guess. But 20-40k a year, pulling the handle would be fine if there was a bullet and case feeder and everything worked perfectly, stroke after stroke. For another $2500 or so, automation would be even better. I'm waiting until the kinks are worked out and sales, service, and the machine are all working together, at the same time. They're new, and the potential seems pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 38 minutes ago, teros135 said: ...I'm waiting until the kinks are worked out and sales, service, and the machine are all working together, at the same time. They're new, and the potential seems pretty good. At this point I'd say the kinks are worked out on the Revolution. The index paw issue has been resolved (was a supplier issue), and there is an upgrade to the automated powder measure (see FB pics posted a few pages ago). Now, the automated priming system is not that forgiving of brass with debris in the primer pocket, but that is a user issue of making sure the components are up to snuff. Service has been great as well while resolving the above issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiller Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Norm37 said: With the $300 in upgrades do you think I could do what I said in my reply to Bad shot? Reload in one stage? Ps. The reason I'm upgrading is to cut my handle pulls in half. If I can do it on a 5 station press that's fine with me. Then I won't really need 7 stations. You can do what you want on a 650 all day long and in one pass. I only use range brass as you can't beat the price and I'm too cheap to buy it! At the start I was decapping, wet tumbling then running the bass back through the 650 for loading. At some point I cut out the decapping and when straight from wet tumbling to the press. Every pull on the handle was one round. I did not have a Mr. Bullet feeder just the case feeder and that's a necessity. I'm sure I'm not as fussy as some of the other folks on this forum when it comes to tolerances, however, I had a range and keep within it. I normally do a check powder weight every 100 or so and every round when into a case checker. If it failed that it got pulled. The 650 is not without its issues and there are books written on powder spills, jerky indexing heads and everything in between. You figure out work-a-round and ways of addressing all and move on. I have 2 kids and time is a premium so my reloading time is limited. Typically I would crank out 500 or so and call it a night. I'm upgrading as I'm a techie/mechanical geek and I know the base Mk 7 Evo is a better machine that my 650 ever could be, also, I did not want to deal with all the issue on a 1050, so that rule it out. I learned on a 550 and immediately know that it was way to manual so that definitely rules out all single stage machines. I'm not into rolling my own rifle ammo and don't think I ever will, so drinking the Cool Aid and jumping onto a just above beta machine is okay with me. Like I said the base Evo (the guts of the machine) are build like a brick $hit house and after years of watching my 650 indexing plate go up as well are round because of bad castings and other issues I'm done for now with Dillon. That's not to say it will not work for you or others but I'm shooting more and want something better to load on. Also, I'm young enough to get a few years of it and old enough to see value in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slavex Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 My Revo does not have the second support/guide pin on the front of the press as I ordered mine in 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thetimb Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 6 hours ago, slavex said: My Revo does not have the second support/guide pin on the front of the press as I ordered mine in 9mm. Anyone have a clear picture of the rod or where it’s supposed to go on a press? I ordered a 223 conversion kit and want to make sure I get the rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGA Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) I have the same question as Thetimb, I'm trying to figure out whether my Evo in .223 has the second guide rod installed but am not sure which one it is..... Is it the one with the spring, bolted on to the toolhead? The manual isn't clear either... Edited October 5, 2018 by RGA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, RGA said: I have the same question as Thetimb, I'm trying to figure out whether my Evo in .223 has the second guide rod installed but am not sure which one it is..... Is it the one with the spring, bolted on to the toolhead? There are 3 rods in front. The middle one is the primer depth adjustment rod. Are the other two what is called guide pins? There are no other holes on the toolhead, so don't know where anything else would go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGJohnV Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 I've highlighted in red where the rifle guide rod upgrade goes. It's meant to help with tool head deflection when resizing rifle cases. I've thought about getting it for mine but with 9mm it is not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thetimb Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, SSGJohnV said: I've highlighted in red where the rifle guide rod upgrade goes. It's meant to help with tool head deflection when resizing rifle cases. I've thought about getting it for mine but with 9mm it is not necessary. Thank you sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikamarj Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/4/2018 at 5:30 PM, tanks said: I thought you contacted them just a week ago? Also, you are in Europe so I think for best results you might have to work through your distributor. Due to ITAR regulations I don't think you can just DHL the powder measure to them to be upgraded and have it returned. Update on this case is that reason for delay in the support was not related to the company/product, now my case is progressing well and I should receive fixed powder measure soon. So I'm a happy customer again and can still recommend the product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm37 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, SSGJohnV said: I've highlighted in red where the rifle guide rod upgrade goes. It's meant to help with tool head deflection when resizing rifle cases. I've thought about getting it for mine but with 9mm it is not necessary. I'm thinking it might also help with flex in the shell plate??? 9mm is a taper case not straight walled like other pistol brass. Quotes from jcwallace84: In another site. Posted: 9/12/2018 11:26:17 PM PDT "I haven’t done 9mm yet on this press, which to me sizes almost as bad as some rifle" "Posted: 9/4/2018 9:44:36 PM PDT "I feel like rifle case sizing will cause more than a few thosandths of flex in the system on the opposite side of the press" For anyone loading .223 all of jcwallace84 posts are a good read. They start about two thirds of the way down page three (it shows the shipping box on his porch) and they continue on through page four. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Mark-7-Reloading-s-new-Evolution-Pro-press/42-488088/?page=3 If I keep my order I will buy the second guide rod. Anything to help reduce flex is a good thing. Edited October 5, 2018 by Norm37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikamarj Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Norm37 said: I'm thinking it might also help with flex in the shell plate??? 9mm is a taper case not straight walled like other pistol brass. What flex are you talking about? My short experience with my Evolution Pro is that there is less flex than in my old RL 1050. Norm37, maybe you should stop making up problems before you have even tried your press? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thetimb Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Norm37 said: I'm thinking it might also help with flex in the shell plate??? 9mm is a taper case not straight walled like other pistol brass. Quotes from jcwallace84: In another site. Posted: 9/12/2018 11:26:17 PM PDT "I haven’t done 9mm yet on this press, which to me sizes almost as bad as some rifle" "Posted: 9/4/2018 9:44:36 PM PDT "I feel like rifle case sizing will cause more than a few thosandths of flex in the system on the opposite side of the press" For anyone loading .223 all of jcwallace84 posts are a good read. They start about two thirds of the way down page three (it shows the shipping box on his porch) and they continue on through page four. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Mark-7-Reloading-s-new-Evolution-Pro-press/42-488088/?page=3 If I keep my order I will buy the second guide rod. Anything to help reduce flex is a good thing. I don’t think there is that much good info in his post tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm37 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, mikamarj said: What flex are you talking about? My short experience with my Evolution Pro is that there is less flex than in my old RL 1050 Norm37, maybe you should stop making up problems before you have even tried your press? My reply was to SSGJohnV who stated he did not need the second guide rod. I thought he might like reading another posters comments. How does quoting others and giving links equate to making up problems??? I will not stop making replies that I think might be interesting and helpful to the person I am replying to. I'm happy your experiencing less flex on you Evolution Pro. Norm Ps. I have read every reply on this thread. I want to be as informed as I can on any problems that might have shown up and the solutions or work arounds on the Evolution prior to receiving mine. Edited October 6, 2018 by Norm37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 2 hours ago, mikamarj said: What flex are you talking about? My short experience with my Evolution Pro is that there is less flex than in my old RL 1050. Norm37, maybe you should stop making up problems before you have even tried your press? Not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 SSGJohnV has EVO PRO serial number 2 and has run a whole lot of rounds on it. I'm going to guess he already knows what he's talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGA Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Concerning the guide rods, I also posted this question on the MK7 community forum for a definitive answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm37 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 2 hours ago, RGA said: Concerning the guide rods, I also posted this question on the MK7 community forum for a definitive answer. Good for you. I'm looking forward to what they say. Second Guide Pin (suggested for rifle calibers) [+$149.95] That's not that bad of a price. Even if I decide not to do rifle calibers I will probably buy it. I talked to somebody I think it might have been one of the sales reps at Mark 7 ??? Sorry I'm old and memory is not what it used to be. I even asked about the Third guide pin as I was willing to buy both. He said: "The second guide pin will take care of 90% of any flex.) The third guide pin is not needed unless you do large caliber rifle cartridges." I said, then I will order the second guide pin when my Evolution order ships from DAA. My main reason for the purchase would be because of the following jcwallace84: post. Posted: 9/12/2018 11:26:17 PM PDT "I haven’t done 9mm yet on this press, which to me sizes almost as bad as some rifle" I figure what's an extra $149.95 on the price of the machine if it helps even a little bit. I think I will need it more than someone who has the Evolution Pro as that machine will run a lot smoother and the same repeatable up and down movement every time. I can't do that pulling the handle on my Evolution. So the more stable I can make my Evolution the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedmoose Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 How is flex measured? All this flex talk is making regret of selling the Dillon 1050 and 650XL. Anyone have measurements from other presses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm37 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, armedmoose said: How is flex measured? All this flex talk is making regret of selling the Dillon 1050 and 650XL. Anyone have measurements from other presses? In my reply 16 hours ago the guy I quoted (felt) it was a few thousands on the opposite side when sizing . I don't think he measured it. That is on .223 rifle case. He received his press a couple of months ago and it did not have the second guide pin. Also he has the Evolution so has to pull a handle. IMO will never be as smooth running as the Evolution Pro. I would not worry about it as Mark 7 has second and third guide pins if you think you need it. You have to remember the Evolution is a consumer press based off the Revolution. IMO To get the cost (price) down Mark 7 must have made some modifications to the revolution. I would think the Camdex Presses having no shell plate so no flexing. Those are close to $30,000 http://www.camdexloader.com/2100pistol.aspx I think the Dillon 1050 and 650XL would also have some flex. Probably not even talked about as no fix available so you just live with it. Edited October 6, 2018 by Norm37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm37 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) To everyone, Mark 7 thinks you only need any of the two additional guide pins if you do rifle cases. I replied to SSGJohnV so he could have additional information that I thought would be interesting to him. I will be doing 9mm cases, so I made the decision I will get the second guide pin even though it is not needed. I'm the kind of guy who likes to make upgrades and improvements even when not really needed. It makes me feel good. That is as long as the cost is not to high. Sorry, Norm Ps. One guy even accused me of making up problems. I sure wasn't trying to do that. I was just relaying info I thought might be interesting to SSGJohnV In the future I will rethink my reply before posting. I think I will use the PM feature more often instead of posting a reply. Again Sorry Edited October 6, 2018 by Norm37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwallace84 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Guys guys This talk of “flex” is getting overboard. I mentioned it when I noticed some during swaging. Once I got things adjusted a little more, I was putting much less stress on the system and not getting much at all. The only people that should type “flex” or anything similar, on this forum, should be from someone that owns a press. Not speculation. The “flex” should be present in any reloading press that is not a single stage (or maybe camdex), and it has to do, at least partially, with tolerances being “unstacked”. This originally stems more from a question of what would one pass rifle sizing and loading look like on affecting seating depth. When I did a big batch of swaging 223, I was using a body die in far enough to keep the case from being pushed upwards by the swage rod. I checked, and it was not far enough to start bumping the shoulder. Brass had plenty of case lube. I was also changing the way I did case lube a little bit and once I got the right amount there was minimal stress and “flex” perceivable to the eye. This manifests as maybe more accurately “tilt” of the tool head. It seems people are having a hard time understanding the use of the word here, and maybe think I am trying to say metal parts are “bending” (also a bad word to use, as the word “strain” is more appropriate, and important to understand the difference between elastic and yield levels of strain). All metals change under load, first in elastic. Also, mechanisms with positive tolerance will have its own way of “appearing” to deflect. This should be common sense. And it’s not like this press is the only one that does it. It’s simply how machines are designed and built. Also, if sizing only, you’ll have 7-8 empty die stations. I put another body die, mostly backed out, on the other side of the press and this balanced what minimal deflection there was, and was flawless. I’m interested to see other people’s experience. My press is #25 of the manual version. I think maybe only one other person has posted pics. Back in July not very many people had one, and not many pics or vids of it in the wild. I don’t and won’t post here or anywhere very much. But I don’t want rumors spread about on my behalf. There is no downside to this press, in my opinion, big enough to encourage someone to chose the alternative, made with near century old methods. The proliferation and availability of CNC machining and CAD (mostly in the past decade really), have allowed this modern press to exist and is something the reloading world desperately needs. Compare this press all you want, but until it’s in front of you, you won’t understand the difference. It’s in a different universe than the Hornady lock n load. I can’t compare it with any Dillon however. Remember, the Hornady equivalent “ammo plant” is over $1,000. The equivalent Dillon 1050 with bullet feeder added would be around $2,300. That price difference still makes the Evolution press worth it, again, in my opinion. And if that is too much of a price difference, then reloading at these volumes may not be for you anyway. To the people who own, or want to buy this press, I really don’t have to explain this. If you have no job and want to reload, you can use a Lee for $50. If you work 70-80hr a week like I do, still hate buying factory ammo, and like nice things, then there is currently no better option than the Evolution. So, now I’ve explained my issues with this overblown “flex” thing, and clearly explained my stance on the press overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGA Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Excellent post Jake! When time permits I'll do some experimenting to see if I can induce some 'flex' in my .223 Evo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm37 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, jcwallace84 said: Guys guys The only people that should type “flex” or anything similar, on this forum, should be from someone that owns a press. Not speculation. Sorry, I won't quote you or any other poster again in this thread. I'm still going to purchase the second guide pin. Now I see I should have just kept that information to myself. I said I was sorry in my reply just before yours. I will just become a lurker from now on. I do want to get as much information on the Evolution as I can. I won't make replies until after I receive my Evolution. Hopefully around Christmas or early next year. Maybe not even then as it is not that important to make replies. What is important is getting as much information as I can. Again sorry, Norm Edited October 6, 2018 by Norm37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwallace84 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Norm, I appreciate it. I didn’t want miscommunication out there about this press on my behalf. This forum is in part for my own learning, and especially longer ago I was still learning and making adjustments to this press. RGA, you are the only 223 user that I know of! But, I have not sized yet, only swage. However, anyone can over stress the press by screwing in a die too far. I kind of think I may still do two pass loading anyway, and not have much stress at all when loading. So, at least for the 5k or so 9mm I’ve done in my life, with carbide dies, TiN and steel, not using lube required a bit more effort on my LNL. I know there are a lot of 9mm users out there. I am curious how it will work for me. I plan on using one pass and case lube on the 9mm when I get the conversion. With additional guide pin/rod or whatever it’s called, this thing would be rock solid! With 3 guides it’d be nuetronium solid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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