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New USPSA Division Proposal


ltrain7281

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45 minutes ago, RJH said:

Wow, if only there weren't 5 divisions you could shoot if you didn't like major, where minor is either equal to or preferable to major...... 

I would rather see fewer divisions too.  

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3 minutes ago, DeweyH said:

I would rather see fewer divisions too.  

Not really, if you did you would just pick one and shoot instead of trying to change them to fit your whims.  That is the basis for all of these "lets revamp a division" threads and was probably the beginning of the multitude of divisions we have now.

 

We have 8 divisions, if there is not one that makes you happy maybe this is not your sport.  (not picking on you in particular Dewey, just a general statement 🙂 )

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1 minute ago, RJH said:

Not really, if you did you would just pick one and shoot instead of trying to change them to fit your whims.  That is the basis for all of these "lets revamp a division" threads and was probably the beginning of the multitude of divisions we have now.

 

We have 8 divisions, if there is not one that makes you happy maybe this is not your sport.  (not picking on you in particular Dewey, just a general statement 🙂 )

Completely wrong.  I am not trying to change anything to fit my whims.  I am commenting on a philosophical debate that never will happen and I really would like for there to  be two divisions.  Open and limited.  I don't care if they keep major/minor or get rid of it.  I do believe that the level of competition would be better if we only have two divisions and if that means making one power factor, I am OK with it.  I don't believe that minor is an advantage except to those who are small, weak, old, or unskilled.  Those competitors do not threaten my ego. Nor do those who are large , strong, young and skilled. I would rather have the very skilled production, single stack etc. shooters come into the Limited fold so that the overall competition base is raised.  Shooting Major gives me no more,  or less, pleasure or challenge than shooting Minor.  I shoot Major  because of the free points.  I also don't care if nothing changes.  

 

I also wouldn't care if they got rid of classifications as well.  That would end the debate on sandbaggers/grandbaggser too.  

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13 hours ago, DeweyH said:

I am commenting on a philosophical debate that never will happen...

 

That's all this is... A bunch of 'what ifs'. nothing to get all wound up about.

 

13 hours ago, DeweyH said:

I also wouldn't care if they got rid of classifications as well.  That would end the debate on sandbaggers/grandbagger too.  

 

I won my 'Class' in the first match I ever shot (late 70's)...

They took the best score and then drew a line where all of the class percentages fell, if you came out at the top of the percentage bracket, you won that 'class' (A,B,C, and D, I don't remember them having master at the time, but I could be wrong).

I imagine that would stir some people's grits these days...

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I like the idea to make a carry-class, since they made production to a production-race-gun class. But i´m afraid they would try to do the same with a carry class, just with shorter barrels once it becomes popular.

The class would need a maximum barrel length, trigger weight, weapons weight, (iwb Holster would be cool too) etc. etc.   

 

But i think it wouldn´t do production a favor.

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16 hours ago, DeweyH said:

 As Shred stated in an earlier post,  Major isn't scored higher because of difficulty of shooting major, but because of the extra damage it does to a target.  This would be a target in the real world.  

 

That "extra damage" of larger caliber handgun bullets has been extensively proven to be false by modern studies.  Dr. Gary K. Roberts for one, and I'm sure there are others.

 

Power factor is a left over of the bad old days when people extrapolated terminal ballistics on the human body by shooting a pendulum and measuring how far it swung...…..LOL.

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Some have forgotten that it is a game, not realistic practice or training for "real life events". Whatever the origins, Major is now scored higher because it is a litle harder to shoot.

Edited by perttime
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2 hours ago, elguapo said:

Power factor is a left over of the bad old days when people extrapolated terminal ballistics on the human body by shooting a pendulum and measuring how far it swung...…..LOL.

 

Even then it got gamed... The 'power factor' was calculated from the center of an 8 or 12 inch steel plate, if you hit it at the very bottom you effectively gained 4 to 6 inches of extra leverage and could swing the plate the required distance with less than the required power factor.

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On 3/19/2018 at 10:12 PM, Sarge said:

There are already at least two too many divisions in USPSA. Please, no more!

Why not let them live in IDPA land where they would be just fine? Our USPSA stages are too big for them in my opinion. The reason we only see the few odd ball small carry guns at matches is because they are running what they have until they can get a better gun for the game. Or they just want to hone their defensive shooting skills with their carry gun. Again, that's exactly what IDPA is geared for.

I’m with sarge. It’s my understanding that you want to “race” in USPSA. guns are made heavier and hold more rounds than a “carry division” would hold. The division you’re talking about seems a lot like BUG in idpa. I also agree with sarge that there’s at least 1, possibly 2 divisions in uspsa that should be done away with. 
 

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1 hour ago, nikdanja said:

I also agree with sarge that there’s at least 1, possibly 2 divisions in uspsa that should be done away with.

 

No one has ever explained convincingly how tossing divisions would make USPSA better.  The advent of PS makes the "administrative burden" argument moot.  The other argument that those displaced by the loss of their chosen division would move to something more popular thereby "improving competition" is wishful thinking with no evidence to back it up, and completely disregards the motivations that make people choose those unpopular divisions.

Edited by elguapo
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  • 1 month later...

The trouble with this whole discussion  is that very, very few people carry the double stack guns. Whenever I have the discussion on carry guns and say that I carry a S&W Bodyguard 380 I get the pitying look and the reply that " I carry the  Super Dooper XYZ123". When I ask to  see it the answer is  almost always " oh its in the truck/car".

   What I and a few like minded people do is set up a few stages with 6 rounds or less. Size criteria is that the gun must fit in the rear pocket of a regular pair of jeans without sticking out. We do this at my range at home and only invite people that get what the  goal is(trigger time with  actual carry guns). No range lawyers.

   We shoot @10 yds or less at a  variety of targets. Think 6 clay pigeons at 5 yards. 

   I do think it's a great idea to compete with what you carry but it would never work in IPSC, IDPA because of the whiney (we gotta have a rule for that) people.

   Try it for a while. You will probably be ashamed of how poorly you do at first and pleased with how quickly you improve. 

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B class production shooter here. Started with cz85 15 years ago, been trough four Shadows 1, Tanfoglio , S2 ext. Recently shooting with P 07 from 1.5 year now.Have this gun only and carry the same gun daily .  Feel great to compete against all 5'' guns or against 1-2 pound single short reset trigger .  The skills is what mater not the gun.   No needs for new devision. Choose this gun because it gives me a real hard time : Grip, trigger pull, ext is something  to keep in mind by every single shot. But this is me. A lot of people don't like to have hard time and jump to "better" gun.I don't mind if i ended  all the way down on score list. Finally  don't think that this new devision will bring to the sport a new shooters. 

Edited by viren
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21 hours ago, avastcosmicarena said:


No, not everything. Only the pointless, outdated things, like .40 cal and major power factor scoring. :P

Is major PF outdated?

 

First, I’d say .40 is less popular nowadays and that does seem to make it look like outdated as a caliber. In my uneducated opinion, the .40 S&W has fallen out of favor because the majority of the community that .40 was developed for can’t shoot very well and it’s easier and cheaper to shoot 9 mm. That with the advances in ammo technology make 9mm a good choice for almost any application that a handgun, like the ones shot in USPSA, would be used for. Though, if the shooter can handle the .40, it’s definitely not a worse choice than the 9mm. Is the dogma of a “one stop shot” being phased out as newer/younger people get into the sport/industry?  Seems that way from what I see but I’m not involved at any level other than competitor. 
 

PF scoring seems to have roots in the older theories of “knock down”. I’ve always heard that back in the day(80’s and earlier) that 9mm just wasn’t up to par. Was that the case?  Was that due to HP’s not being good or the guns not feeding them well? So, in those cases, RN was a better choice and that’s why everyone chose .45(Gods caliber)?  IDK?  
 

Saying all that, I’d ask why do some people, shooting USPSA, still shoot minor?  It’s because they can’t or don’t want to shoot major? Why? Some shoot minor because it’s easier on their hands or because they feel it’s easier to handle. They choose to take a scoring disadvantage to shoot minor. Some shoot minor for the extra rounds like in SS.  Others want the higher scoring and lower capacity so they choose major.  There are a few reasons to shoot either. 

 

 

So, is it outdated?  Seems like there are still reasons to keep it around. 
 

 

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No lack of people wanting to change stuff. Even when they don't shoot it, they have ideas. Why? The sport is fine. It something for everybody except rimfire shooting. Lets hope like hell that never occurs (I fear it will because of people buying 22's for Steel Challenge and wanting to shoot USPSA with them) 

 

 

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I'll say that some of the opinions expressed here may be because of the area of the country they are in, or they are just guessing about something they have no first hand experience with.

 

First, major IS harder to shoot than minor.  It has nothing to do with damage on the target.  It had to do with recoil and controlability. 

 

Those who say 40 Limited is dead absolutely don't shoot in any of the matches I do.  Limited is alive and well, and well represented.  Yes, there are a lot of Limited minor shooters.  When you ask why they shoot minor the answers are always the same.  I already have the gun and don't want to buy another, or I don't want to reload.  The idea of making Limited minor only and limiting mag capacity to 20 is simply daft.  How would that be enforced?  Does the RO, who already has a lot to do count shots while running the shooter to make sure no more than 21 to start or 20 thereafter was shot?  As an RO I say NO THANKS.  That would be a lot harder than counting targets for Production.  If they made minor mandatory I'd simply use my 40sw minor steel load.  I don't give a crap about 20 vs. 23 in a mag.

 

PCC:  personally I think USPSA is a handgun game, but I'm okay with them.  I just wish they would stop using quiet, bunny fart loads so I don't have to climb up their butt to record the last shot.  I actually bought my own timer capable of picking up PCC shots from a distance, because all three of the CED timers usually provided have a hard time picking up PCC when adjusted properly.

 

Divisions:  I don't really care.  I, like a lot of others, shot what they had even if it was uncompetitive, until I decided I liked the game and wanted to get more serious about it.  I had a ball shooting my 1911 45 in Limited before I bought a double stack 40 complete with race holster, etc.  I had even more fun after.  Now I shoot Open everything and don't care about the other Divisions.  I would certainly not add more.  You can make a reasonable case for four divisions.  Optics major and minor, 140 mags major and minor, 10 round mags major and minor and PCC.

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20 minutes ago, zzt said:

I'll say that some of the opinions expressed here may be because of the area of the country they are in, or they are just guessing about something they have no first hand experience with.

 

First, major IS harder to shoot than minor.  It has nothing to do with damage on the target.  It had to do with recoil and controlability. 

 

Those who say 40 Limited is dead absolutely don't shoot in any of the matches I do.  Limited is alive and well, and well represented.  Yes, there are a lot of Limited minor shooters.  When you ask why they shoot minor the answers are always the same.  I already have the gun and don't want to buy another, or I don't want to reload.  The idea of making Limited minor only and limiting mag capacity to 20 is simply daft.  How would that be enforced?  Does the RO, who already has a lot to do count shots while running the shooter to make sure no more than 21 to start or 20 thereafter was shot?  As an RO I say NO THANKS.  That would be a lot harder than counting targets for Production.  If they made minor mandatory I'd simply use my 40sw minor steel load.  I don't give a crap about 20 vs. 23 in a mag.

 

PCC:  personally I think USPSA is a handgun game, but I'm okay with them.  I just wish they would stop using quiet, bunny fart loads so I don't have to climb up their butt to record the last shot.  I actually bought my own timer capable of picking up PCC shots from a distance, because all three of the CED timers usually provided have a hard time picking up PCC when adjusted properly.

 

Divisions:  I don't really care.  I, like a lot of others, shot what they had even if it was uncompetitive, until I decided I liked the game and wanted to get more serious about it.  I had a ball shooting my 1911 45 in Limited before I bought a double stack 40 complete with race holster, etc.  I had even more fun after.  Now I shoot Open everything and don't care about the other Divisions.  I would certainly not add more.  You can make a reasonable case for four divisions.  Optics major and minor, 140 mags major and minor, 10 round mags major and minor and PCC.

I’m fairly new to the sport so I really don’t know but is that why? It’s because it’s “harder to control”?  It’s kind of a cause and effect. Major is more powerful so it should be harder to shoot. In theory at least. 
 

The whole power from DVC seems to emphasize power and not so much recoil. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

fixed it for you.  ;)

 

LOL.  Okay, put me in the pansy category.  My Limited gun barely moves with my minor load.  It moves more with major, so that means it is harder to shoot.

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2 hours ago, HCH said:

After having shot my carry setup in a club match, I would not ever consider shooting the division mentioned in the first post. 

 

Amen.  I shot the XD9 4" I won at the prize table.  It kicks like a mule with full power loads.  Even with 130PF it was a handful to shoot fast.

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54 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

LOL.  Okay, put me in the pansy category.  My Limited gun barely moves with my minor load.  It moves more with major, so that means it is harder to shoot.

'harder to shoot' in what way? are you measurably slower or less accurate? or do you just have to hold on tighter?

 

I've shot a lot of major and minor both the last few years. For me the difference in speed only becomes significant with particular types of targets, such as 'can you count' or 'roscoe rattle' classifiers.  Up until last summer, my best steel challenge times were with my 45. I was unable to detect a significant difference for standard drills such as el presidente....  It *feels* easier to shoot, but it doesn't seem to show up for me on the clock.

Edited by motosapiens
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