2011 slide replacement questions

[Stealsack]

I cracked the slide on my old school STI limited 2011.  So, you know, I did the responsible thing and ordered a new gun.

Now that I have the new limited gun, I'm thinking I should replace the slide with a 9mm upper for shooting steel.

I like the brazos milled/lightened slide and plan to go that way.  They sell a Caspian and STI with the design I like.  

My question is should I order the Caspian slide or the STI?

Are both slides oversized the same amount in the same dimensions, or should I stick with the STI for a likely closer match?

Thoughts on barrels?  My original barrel is a Schumann and I was happy with it, but they seem to be having issues.

KKM then, or? 

[mike cyrwus]

Imo

This is a discussion you should be having with your gunsmith, unless you are they. 

[Stealsack]

That's a great point.  I will be fitting the slide myself.  I have been doing a lot of reading and thanks in part to this forum, I am comfortable with doing that part of the work.

As to fitting the barrel, we shall see.  I may or may not take that on.  I probably will, then have the work checked by a smith.

[Darthrader18]

I would contact the manufacturer of the slide and try to get a better idea on actually specs before your order. And I have a scheumann for my 38sc and a kkm in 9mm haven't shot the kkm yet but I have heard great things. 

[mike4045]

1 hour ago, mike cyrwus said:

Imo

This is a discussion you should be having with your gunsmith, unless you are they. 

I would listen to this guy. He might know a little something about it.

 

[ltdmstr]

Caspian slide is going to be much better quality than STI.  And you'll probably have a lot less prep work too.  For barrels, I mostly use Bar-Sto, Nowlin and Kart.

[drewbeck]

That's a great point.  I will be fitting the slide myself.  I have been doing a lot of reading and thanks in part to this forum, I am comfortable with doing that part of the work.
As to fitting the barrel, we shall see.  I may or may not take that on.  I probably will, then have the work checked by a smith.

If your not going to fit the barrel, I’d have the gunsmith fit both. Being a diy guy myself, i decided to jump in and wanted to build 2011’s from scratch (parts not blocks) having now built several with a much longer list of topends, parts, etc. if it were me, I’d let the gs build the full topend or nothing at all.

The work involved for a building a custom 2011 is not “difficult” per se, but you gotta be comfortable scrambling a few eggs if you want to make an omelette...

In order to fit a slide correctly without guessing on the fit, requires specialized micrometers/rail mics, or a full machinist group of other tooling to do correctly. If you have experience and devices to measure, slide fitting is pretty straight forward.

Barrel fit requires several tools but overall a lower cost to do correctly that slide fitting. If it was me, I’d have GS for slide and I’d have a go at the barrel.

Regardless of the amount of reading you’ve done, the first experience in slide/barrel fit won’t be perfect, and will likely end up in the trash very soon after it’s complete and you’ll end up spending a lot more on the experience than you’d spend on the cost for someone with experience the first several times.

Go for it if you want to learn and don’t mind spending money on the experience. Otherwise pay someone who knows what they’re doing.

There are two types of gunsmiths, those that pay for schooling, and those that pay an equal cost learning on their own from broken parts. You may get lucky on try #1 but will pay for it in #2

Education is never free


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zzt]

S, there are a couple of things you need to check before you decide on a slide.  The first is to measure the rails on your existing frame.  STIs were all over the place over time.  Then you can decide on the slide.  STI slides have wider ways than Caspian.  If your slide rails are in the narrower range (.755" and under), you almost have to go with the Caspian.  Their slide ways generally come in around .753/4", although I have seen some that vary.

 

Caspian makes a better slide than STI.  I've built using both, and now I'm in the never STI crowd.

[Stealsack]

Darth:  Thanks for the input!

 

Mike:  No doubt caution is warranted, but he really didn't answer my question, did he?

 

Thanks Drewbeck, you have given that advice to others on this forum, and I have taken it to heart.  If all I wanted was a functioning gun for the best price I would have it done by a pro, I just like to tinker.  It is worth it to me to spend the money to learn, even if it costs some expensive parts.

I'm not adverse to spending the money as long as I get something from it, and frankly fitting the slide and barrel does not look terribly difficult to me (probably a warning sign).  I've been reading the Jerry Kuhnhousen shop manuals and there is a TON of good information in there about timing and fitting the barrel.  I have the tooling/micrometers except the specific gunsmith tools which are not all that costly.

I have a mill and lathe though I will likely do all of the fitting by hand the first try.  Slow for me means  I'm less likely to make a mistake, and I'm not in a hurry.  Once I think I have the process down, I might try one with power tools.  I'm NOT interested in making mistakes that can be reasonably avoided by asking questions of you fellow DIY guys who have been there and done that.

 

Zzt:  Thanks very much, that is exactly the information I was looking for/concerned about.  The gunsmith that I talked to had your exact opinion of the STI vs Caspian slide.  He does not use STI unless the customer specifically requests it.  I will size up my frame and see what I have.  I'm happy to use the Caspian if it will do the job.

 

My thanks to you both for taking the time to answer so many questions from so many folks on the forum, it has provided much useful information!

[drewbeck]

2 hours ago, Stealsack said:

Darth:  Thanks for the input!

 

Mike:  No doubt caution is warranted, but he really didn't answer my question, did he?

 

Thanks Drewbeck, you have given that advice to others on this forum, and I have taken it to heart.  If all I wanted was a functioning gun for the best price I would have it done by a pro, I just like to tinker.  It is worth it to me to spend the money to learn, even if it costs some expensive parts.

I'm not adverse to spending the money as long as I get something from it, and frankly fitting the slide and barrel does not look terribly difficult to me (probably a warning sign).  I've been reading the Jerry Kuhnhousen shop manuals and there is a TON of good information in there about timing and fitting the barrel.  I have the tooling/micrometers except the specific gunsmith tools which are not all that costly.

I have a mill and lathe though I will likely do all of the fitting by hand the first try.  Slow for me means  I'm less likely to make a mistake, and I'm not in a hurry.  Once I think I have the process down, I might try one with power tools.  I'm NOT interested in making mistakes that can be reasonably avoided by asking questions of you fellow DIY guys who have been there and done that.

 

Zzt:  Thanks very much, that is exactly the information I was looking for/concerned about.  The gunsmith that I talked to had your exact opinion of the STI vs Caspian slide.  He does not use STI unless the customer specifically requests it.  I will size up my frame and see what I have.  I'm happy to use the Caspian if it will do the job.

 

My thanks to you both for taking the time to answer so many questions from so many folks on the forum, it has provided much useful information!

 

I didn’t see anything to indicate your level of “diy” experience or how seriously you take “tinkering”, If you have a mill and Lathe regardless or their size you’ve likely made enough mistakes to have a decent amount of experience in how easy it is to quickly screw things up royally.

 

having said that, I’d say go for it, you either have the skills now or would benefit from the knowledge you’ll gain from the process.  

 

I wouldn’t say fitting a slide and barrel is difficult if have experience with those general machinist level of tolerances and the patience to go along with it.  On the other hand, if you’re a diy guy that’s the best carpenter to ever live, and you believe you can frame a house down to a knats ass, so fitting a slide should be easy, you’re probably gonna be humbled by the experience.

 

I also agree that you should fit the slide by hand vs the mill. I use the mill for slide cuts and lightening but the savings in time it takes to setup and really indicate a slide for milling vs using files isn’t worth the risk of catastrophe to me.

 

A means to accurately measure the rails and ways of the slide and frame will be most difficult. Starred makes a mic specifically for this that brownells sells but you should be able to fine a “can seam micromets that’s nearly identical on eBay to 40-$50 in lieu of $280 from brownells.

 

if you start feeling impatient or trying to hurry to meet a deadline in your mind, just walk away for the night and come back the next day after you’ve thought More about what’s causing the issue. 

 

Have fun

[zzt]

Well,  have a different take.  In another life I was a tool & die maker trained by Germans.  Accurate handwork with files and scrapers was part of the training.  I fit my first 1911 using files, a surface plate and grades of sand paper.  You can get a perfect fit, with rails parallel and flat to within a Micron.  IMO, it is not worth the effort.  If I had access to a good mill, I'd machine everything down to an interference fit, then finish by hand.  That is much quicker.

 

The first time you try to fit a true gunsmith barrel by hand with files, you'll quickly fire up the mill.  I'd suggest you use semi-fit barrels to start.  Kart makes wonderful barrels, as long as you don't want a bull barrel.  Their Xact-fit series are relatively easy to fit, because the bottom lugs are finished and linked.  Same with the Barsto semi-fit barrels.  If you want to remove 16-18 thou from the bottom lugs without a mill, you are forced to use a lug cutter.  There you have a choice. Cut to +.010" and finish by hand, or cut to 'final' dims and live with a somewhat rough finish.  If you smooth out the 'final' cut finish, you reduce the upper lug's engagement depth.  Good, sharp end mills are your friend.

[Stealsack]

My thanks to you both!  

Drew: I have slowly learned patience over the years, so your words are well taken.  I have learned the art of "walking away to process".  Painfully.

I can work out how to do most things with a mill, but I am by no means quick about it.  I am always humbled by watching my friends (professionals) setup a new job.

 

zzt:  I understand your point.  My buddy has the barrel jig, so I will certainly use that to fit the barrel.  I had planned on using the lug cutter and dressing from there.  I may have to revisit that plan.  As to end mills, I am not frugal with them.  I don't do enough work to try to stretch their life.  I am always happy to put a new cutter on the mill.  

[Broncman]

Post up your slide measurements. CK, Caspian and others all have slightly different dimensions. We can probably take your data and let you know which would be the better fit.

 

I am an avid DIY'r and do all my own work. But I have killed a slide.....well repurposed it anyways.

 

I make all my own tools jigs etc. If you do not do this for a living, often enough making the jigs will get you practiced enough on the mill/lathe to do good work on your slide etc.

[Stealsack]

Thanks Broncman, I don't do a ton of mill work, but what I do is typically small detailed items.  I also have several friends that are machinists by profession.

If I wreck a slide, it won't be the end of the world.  That said, I hope to be careful enough to sneak up on the tolerances until I'm happy. 

I'm probably more likely to wreck the third item I work on, at that point I will think I know what I'm doing...

I don't have the nifty drawing with me, but zzt guessed right, the rail width is indeed .755, the rail hight is .118 and the rail is .1 thick

The existing slide is .216 to the top of the way, the way is .103 tall and .113 from the bottom of the slide to the bottom of the way.

While I have a fair kit of measuring devices, my buddy has ALL the goodies. 

Given the info you guys have provided, I'll order up the Caspian unless someone has more to add?  

[yigal]

On 2/28/2018 at 4:57 PM, zzt said:

Well,  have a different take.  In another life I was a tool & die maker trained by Germans.  Accurate handwork with files and scrapers was part of the training.  I fit my first 1911 using files, a surface plate and grades of sand paper.  You can get a perfect fit, with rails parallel and flat to within a Micron.  IMO, it is not worth the effort.  If I had access to a good mill, I'd machine everything down to an interference fit, then finish by hand.  That is much quicker.

 

The first time you try to fit a true gunsmith barrel by hand with files, you'll quickly fire up the mill.  I'd suggest you use semi-fit barrels to start.  Kart makes wonderful barrels, as long as you don't want a bull barrel.  Their Xact-fit series are relatively easy to fit, because the bottom lugs are finished and linked.  Same with the Barsto semi-fit barrels.  If you want to remove 16-18 thou from the bottom lugs without a mill, you are forced to use a lug cutter.  There you have a choice. Cut to +.010" and finish by hand, or cut to 'final' dims and live with a somewhat rough finish.  If you smooth out the 'final' cut finish, you reduce the upper lug's engagement depth.  Good, sharp end mills are your friend.

my teachers  was from the same school .