Moving Targets

[Flyin40]

I shot a match over the weekend that had a stage where all paper targets were either swingers and drop turners. When you started the stage you had a swinger with two paper targets on it at about 15 yards, right out in the open. You also had a drop turner that was visible from the start position. The only instructions was to start with hands at side and engage the targets as they become visible. There were quite a few guys on the squad, including myself who shot the swingers and drop turners before they were activated. I ask they guy who put the match on why he put the targets where they were visible. He stated the rules say you have to activate the drop turner prior to shooting the targets. He ended up throwning the stage out of the whole match when he posted the results and gave a DNF to all the shooters. Is it against the rules or just bad stage design. I ran into this a month ago at another match and was told it was poor stage design.

Flyin40

[ErikW]

Bad stage design. Freestyle is shoot what you can see. Anytime somebody wants to spew off about a rule like that, hand them the rulebook and kindly ask them to point out the rule.

[Flyin40]

He was real nice about it. I told him that I didn't believe there was any rule stating that. He stated he just shot area 6 and you weren't aloud to do it, it was 1 procedural if you did. He didn't make a big fuss or anything about it. He just gave everyone a DNF on the stage which is messed up. I just wanted to know in case I was wrong. Hes a great guy and wanted to give him an apology for messin up his stage is I was wrong.

Flyin40

[ima45dv8]

He stated he just shot area 6 and you weren't aloud to do it, it was 1 procedural if you did. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "Star Struck" stage at A6 did include a warning in the written stage briefing that failure to activate prior to engaging would cause penalties per 10.2.2. That's fair warning.

If it isn't in the WSB, shoot 'em as you see 'em.

[johnhurd]

I just hope that if this was a club match you are ready to pick up the slack from the jaded workers. WHat kind of a competitor would want to shoot a mover before activating it............... shooting the stationary is not the test shooting the mover is. Me thinks the gaming is more important now dayz than the shooting.

and what are we to do with these

9.9.2 Moving targets, which do not comply with the above criteria,

will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where

Rule 9.9.3 applies.

9.9.3 Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which

initiates the target movement.

[Flexmoney]

He stated he just shot area 6 and you weren't aloud to do it, it was 1 procedural if you did. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "Star Struck" stage at A6 did include a warning in the written stage briefing that failure to activate prior to engaging would cause penalties per 10.2.2. That's fair warning.

If it isn't in the WSB, shoot 'em as you see 'em.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That flys in the face of 1.1.5 Freestyle: ...Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and

to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

Dictating a shooting order for targets...at an Area match? That just doesn't seem right. I wasn't there. Maybe I am missing something?

[Flyin40]

A "Freestyle" competitor would shoot it that way.

I used to think that the shooting is the hard part but came to realize its more figuring out the stages. All the practice and dryfiring just leads me to just shoot and not think about it but figuring out the stage, especially larger stages in 5 mins is hard part, not shooting it I'm starting to find I get just as much enjoyment trying to figure out the fastest way and most accurate way to shoot a stage as much as actually the fun of shooting.

One thing I noticed about some GM's I regulary shoot with is the most focused and tense they appear to be is not while they are shooting but just prior to the 5min walk through and during the 5 minute walk through and prior to shooting, they don't appear tense while they are shooting. By tense I mean intense, they don't want to talk or anwser questions, just extremely focused.

If figuring out how the fastest and most accurate way to shoot a stage is gaming, then I'm a gamer for life.

Flyin40

[ima45dv8]

That flys in the face of 1.1.5 Freestyle:  ...Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and

to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

Dictating a shooting order for targets...at an Area match?  That just doesn't seem right.  I wasn't there.  Maybe I am missing something?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I can say is it was blessed by John Amidon prior to publishing the match booklet. But as johnhurd pointed out, wouldn't 9.9.3 apply?

[johnhurd]

I am gettin old and forgetful, but it seems to me back in the recesses of what is left of my mind that there was a ruling from Amidon in one of the Front sights that addressed this very problem. I have a query in to see if there is a shearchable archive of these.

[XRe]

All I can say is it was blessed by John Amidon prior to publishing the match booklet. But as johnhurd pointed out, wouldn't 9.9.3 apply?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure does - but all it says is that you have activate the target(s). Doesn't say that you have to activate it before you engage it. You could shoot the whole course, then calmly, slowly, return to activate the mover(s) if there's no incentive to do so while engaging the rest of the targets.

There seems to be some confusion here as to what actually constitutes a violation of 1.1.5. It was a level III match, so shouldn't be exempt. The procedure that the AP1 must be activated before engaging TS2 would appear to be contradictory to 1.1.5 (I know you designed the course, Mark - not jumping your case about this, just commenting ). It might do us some good to get a clarification from Amidon on what 1.1.5 *really* means, in practice

[johnhurd]

"When you started the stage you had a swinger with two paper targets on it at about 15 yards, right out in the open."

So you knew they were swinging targets so fluttering in the wind could be ruled out and the only way to get the targets swinging was to hit the activator steel, right??? seems pretty simple to me unless you took Clinton definitions 101 "it depends on how you define Swinging" .............. I have no problem figuring out the fastest way to shoot the course of fire but to shoot a swinger before activation ..... well .... just goes beyong the pale.

[edit]

Edited July 21, 2005 by Flexmoney

[XRe]

I have no problem figuring out the fastest way to shoot the course of fire but to shoot a swinger before activation .....  well .... just goes beyong the pale.

...in your opinion. It would appear to be well within the bounds of the rules...

[edit]

Let's compare to a more "realistic" situation. You come upon two bad guys holding a loved one at gunpoint. Do you 1) blast them while you have the element of suprise, or 2) shout "Hey, you guys, move around - I don't feel right about blasting you while you're standing still". In most states, at least, both are legal options - one is far smarter than the other, IMO. In the swinger example, one is far faster - both are within the rules. You obviously don't like it - but there it is.

Edited July 21, 2005 by Flexmoney

[Flyin40]

How about football, the whole idea is to find a weakness in the defense so you can score. You don't yell out to the defense, Hey were running to the left, get ready. If a opportunity is seen it is taken advantage of.

How about baseball, a outfielder is out of position, Gee we don't want to hit over there. If an opportunity is seen it is taken advantage of.

In any sport its just as important to outsmart your opponent as it is outplaying them.

What makes this sport great is the freestyle. The sport is based on that and if you take that away you have "shoot target one 2 times, shoot target 2 2 times, shoot target 3 2 times and then reload. Go through the door and shoot target 4 only after you put your left index finger in the circle covering the black dot.

As far as 9.9.3, I did activate the popper.

Flyin40

[ima45dv8]

All I can say is it was blessed by John Amidon prior to publishing the match booklet. But as johnhurd pointed out, wouldn't 9.9.3 apply?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure does - but all it says is that you have activate the target(s). Doesn't say that you have to activate it before you engage it. You could shoot the whole course, then calmly, slowly, return to activate the mover(s) if there's no incentive to do so while engaging the rest of the targets.

There seems to be some confusion here as to what actually constitutes a violation of 1.1.5. It was a level III match, so shouldn't be exempt. The procedure that the AP1 must be activated before engaging TS2 would appear to be contradictory to 1.1.5 (I know you designed the course, Mark - not jumping your case about this, just commenting ). It might do us some good to get a clarification from Amidon on what 1.1.5 *really* means, in practice

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, no offence taken. You've always acted as a gentleman and even when you disagree, it's done with tact. That's a lesson we all need to be reminded of from time to time.

I kept re-reading your post and it made me go looking for the email exchange I had with JA, regarding my concerns over the stage procedure. I specifically asked him about applicable penalties in the event someone shot the star prior to activating the mechanism.

In his reply he quoted 9.9.3, and followed that by stating, "It says nothing about whether you shoot them anyway, it just stats (sic) if you do not activate them it will score a misses and failure to engage." {It would be best to get a definitive answer on that opinion, but I read that to mean that if you shot the star and then activated the mechanism, you would still ge the Mikes and FTE's.}

He then recommended adding the verbiage to the WSB that failure to activate prior to engaging would incur penalties per 10.2.2.

Flex, I should have added this bit before.

...Mark

[johnhurd]

[edit]

...don't go trying to comfuze me with "Practical" stuff We haven't had anything "Practical" since "89"

Edited July 21, 2005 by Flexmoney

[Flexmoney]

Mark,

I just can't see where that is a legal (freestyle) stage...regardless of the emails with JA.

{It would be best to get a definitive answer on that opinion, but I read that to mean that if you shot the star and then activated the mechanism, you would still ge the Mikes and FTE's.}

That is just not the way it works. Freestyle means that if you can see them, you can shoot them...in any order.

[XRe]

Thanks for the edits, Flex

How 'bout this - I'll write up an email to Mr. Amidon and request clarification on the terms "freestyle" and "Level III", and the interplay at a Level III match between 1.1.5 and 9.9.x??? I'll post results back here

Edit - I sent said note to John. We'll see what he says

[ima45dv8]

Looking forward to the response you get, Dave.

Thanks...

[XRe]

Looking forward to the response you get, Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's the response and my original email. Again, Mark, no offense intended w/ disparaging remarks re: quality of course design

Short order - it's poor course design to do something like this (put targets out in the open where they can be seen before being activated), but the course designer can legally specify that you must take action to activate the targets before engaging them without violating the freestyle principle.

Enjoy!!!

----- John's reponse and my email begin here -----

Hi Dave,

Sorry for the delay, but I just finished as MD for the two US Nationals in Barry, IL.

I agree that it is poor stage design, and that hard cover or using a door to activate

is the proper way to go, however, rule 3.2.1 must state the start position and procedure

amongst other things.

Rule 1.1.5 is there so that you may not require a reload, shooting with a specific hand

or tell them they have to go prone or some other such thing. Shooting the targets as and

when you see them is what presents the problem, but if the stage procedure states that

you must push over the popper prior to engaging targets, it is no different than stating

you must engage targets from within the free fire zone, or your strong hand must be on

door knob or you must insert key into box, etc., it is a requirement of the stage and from

that point on, its as you see them.

John

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Re" <dave@daverephoto.com>

To: <jamidon1@twcny.rr.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:22 PM

Subject: Rule question re: 1.1.5, 9.9.3

>

> Hi, John,

>

> On the brianenos.com forums, we've been discussing a situation that I was hoping to get some clarification on. The scenario: a field course stage begins with a swinging target set such that it is fully visible when it is not activated, and remains fully visible throughout it's travel. The shooter must push over a popper at the start of the stage to activate the swinging action of the target.

>

> The question is, given the tenet of freestyle as described in 1.1.5, and the target scenario above, can the shooter be forced to activate the target *before* shooting it at a Level II or Level III match?? For a Level I match, 1.1.5 can be circumvented, per US1.1.5.1. 9.9.3 tells us that, if the target is never activated, miss and FTE penalties may be assessed - but does not prevent the shooter from engaging the target and then pushing over the popper.

>

> It has been conjectured that placing a phrase in the written stage briefing and course description stating that the target must be engaged before engagement may be sufficient and would be punishable by 10.2.2 procedural penalties. However, this seems to fly directly in the face of 1.1.5 ("...as and when visible..."), which requires that the shooter be allowed to engage targets in a freestyle fashion, and that the desired scenario be "forced" through use of hardcover at the swinger start position, or something to that effect.

>

> This has come up while discussing a stage from the A6 match this year, another shooter's local match where this was attempted (and gamed), and the ensuing comparison and discussion.

>

> This is basically a request for interpretation of the bounds of 1.1.5, I guess How far does the concept of "freestyle" go, in the context of the rule? Does it only cover mandatory reloads, start positions, and which hand you're allowed to shoot with? Or does it cover the entire conduct of the stage? (the 2nd seems to be the popular interpretation - and the correct one, in my experience/estimation).

>

> My personal feeling is that, for a Level II or III match, it's a poor stage design, and should be changed to make it advantageous or otherwise necessary for the shooter to start the mover before engaging it (hide it while unactivated, force them through an activating door, etc). Assuming one couldn't redesign, what would be the ruling??

>

> Thank you so much for your time!

>

> Dave - A25626

[johnhurd]

[BDH]

Maybe I am evil, but I have often set up swingers so that if someone 'really' wants to shoot them while they are static, they do have that option. They may only have a piece of the D zone, OR more likely, they may have an 'upper A/B' shot between two no-shoots.

If they want to give up the points by shooting the D hits, or take the time required to shoot an upper A/B while the target is static, well..... that is their choice.....

[ima45dv8]

Thanks, Dave. Again, no offence taken. I had concerns about this scenario early on. That's why I emailed John about it in the first place (and after the stage had been "blessed"). He mentioned in one exchange that perhaps a window or some sort of moving panel that is also activated by the mechanism would be a good solution. That would ensure that they would be moving before engagement. It would mean more engineering and construction, but I think that's really the best way to go.

But, as he said, even though it seems to be in contrast to the freestyle concept, you can make stated requirements in the WSB for stages at Level II and III matches. Not saying that's good or bad. It just.....is.

**As I was writing this, I realized that while legal, including that stated requirement in my WSB was just an expedient way to cover up my laziness. I should have reworked the stage with a retracting vision barrier. If I find myself in that position again for a match of this magnitude, I'll do it the right way.

Thanks everyone.

[Flexmoney]

A couple of things...

1. If it isn't freestyle shooting I am NOT going to play. Make it freestyle...that is a huge part of what USPSA/IPSC is all about.

2. A Procedure is an action that must be done. However, a Procedure can't replace the written law of the rulebook.

3. I wasn't at the Area 6 match. When information about that stage was posted, I assumed the activating popper was of the shoot-down variety. If so, freestyle rules. It sounds like the popper wasn't a target, but a stage prop? One that the Procedure required the shooter to manipulate before engaging targets. If so, that is fine in my book. No different from many of the other Procedures that we are required to do.

[ima45dv8]

A couple of things...

It sounds like the popper wasn't a target, but a stage prop?  One that the Procedure required the shooter to manipulate before engaging targets.  If so, that is fine in my book.  No different from many of the other Procedures that we are required to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is correct.