USPSA, new PPC rules

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, NervousEnergy said:

I've been to two Tier 4 matches with PCC, and two Tier 2 matches, and have not seen any enforcement of handling rules anywhere near that level.  Keen vigilance for flagging, of course, which there should be, but nobody was watching the unbagging at the berm or caring what you did with the gun while pointed at the berm. 

And when somebody finally does they will be called overzealous or worse. As dumb as this particular rule is it should be followed  by shooters so they don’t develop bad habits.

[L9X25]

1 hour ago, NervousEnergy said:

I've been to two Tier 4 matches with PCC, and two Tier 2 matches, and have not seen any enforcement of handling rules anywhere near that level.  Keen vigilance for flagging, of course, which there should be, but nobody was watching the unbagging at the berm or caring what you did with the gun while pointed at the berm. 

 

All that it takes is for the "right" RO to see that and it becomes a problem.  

 

I recall seeing an RO attempt to DQ Merle Eddington for moving with his finger in the trigger guard, while in a free-fire area of a field course.   Merle is a GM and national champion that had a portion of his trigger finger amputated to where he barely could reach the side of the trigger and could never actually have his finger in the guard.  The RO admitted to the RM that he did not actually see the finger in the guard, but could not see it out of the guard and that was the reason for the call.  It was rightfully overturned, but it never should have been called in the first place.

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, NervousEnergy said:

I've been to two Tier 4 matches with PCC, and two Tier 2 matches, and have not seen any enforcement of handling rules anywhere near that level.  Keen vigilance for flagging, of course, which there should be, but nobody was watching the unbagging at the berm or caring what you did with the gun while pointed at the berm. 

 

If they unbag at a safety table, then nobody would be.  But the rules allow you to unbag anywhere against a berm.  If you're not at a safety table, you're handling your firearm outside of a safety area or direct RO supervision.  You DQ an Open pistol shooter for walking over to a berm and drawing his pistol to check his dot outside of a safety area, wouldn't you?

 

BTW, what's a Tier 4 match?  Is that a MG designation?

[Sarge]

23 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

If they unbag at a safety table, then nobody would be.  But the rules allow you to unbag anywhere against a berm.  If you're not at a safety table, you're handling your firearm outside of a safety area or direct RO supervision.  You DQ an Open pistol shooter for walking over to a berm and drawing his pistol to check his dot outside of a safety area, wouldn't you?

 

BTW, what's a Tier 4 match?  Is that a MG designation?

Can’t turn on the dot even if it’s in a cart though. The rule doesn’t say checking the dot or sight pic only. It says turning on/off. This is in the rules addendum though and I think several of the points in there have been changed but the form not updated. 

[outerlimits]

seems inconsistent with MG rules.  for example, with pre-load tables we are actually loading shotgun tubes with live ammo.  checking yer optics was never an issue.  

[Patrick Scott]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

As dumb as this particular rule is it should be followed  by shooters so they don’t develop bad habits.

^this  I have no real legitimate complaints about this rule. 

[troupe]

9x25 ,I remember that incident with Merle. I was there.  Merle's finger in the trigger guard was  a issue if Merle was winning.  Many , many moons ago.

[stick]

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:27 PM, Patrick Scott said:

I simply fuss with my dot at MR and ULSC, and I have my stock always set where I like it. I think that rule is a little harsh, but I also don't see the need to mess with the gun unless I'm up. 

 

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:38 PM, JAFO said:

 

That's what I do, too.

 

I can understand the simplicity of the rule.  You don't have a holster on a PCC, so whenever you are holding it away from a safe table or MR, you have access to the trigger.  To eliminate the arguments about what defines "handling", they just said you can carry it from point A to point B while not under RO supervision or at a safe table, and that's it.

It's easy!  I carry the gun from the cart by the stock muzzle down.  When the RO gives the make ready command, I turn on the C-more before removing the chamber flag and loading the gun.  When I'm given the ULSC command, after inserting the chamber flag, I flip the safety on and turn off the C-more and carry the gun back to the cart muzzle down by the stock.

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, stick said:

 

I carry the gun from the cart by the stock muzzle down. 

 

My club requires rifle be carried Muzzle UP   

[L9X25]

2 hours ago, troupe said:

9x25 ,I remember that incident with Merle. I was there.  Merle's finger in the trigger guard was  a issue if Merle was winning.  Many , many moons ago.

 

I knew the RO, he was from my home club.  Pretty typical story, a fairly new C shooter gets his RO certification and suddenly wants to show everyone that he knows all of the rules, he may not understand them all, but he knows them.   

 

He had no ill intent toward Merle personally, and did not have any motivations to help someone else win, he was just "that guy" that searches for a reason to throw people out of matches and show his power.   MD's & RM's frown on that sort of thing and he eventually got the message and mellowed out.  Not a bad guy, really.   

[StealthyBlagga]

On 2/22/2018 at 8:54 AM, Sarge said:

If you have that much pull with Troy have him remove the rule that says a shooter can not even turn the dot on on a PCC unless under RO control. That is the dumbest thing. Well, except for PCC’s themselves.?

 

Not such a dumb rule IMHO. Lately I have seen folks doing all kinds of unnecessary gun handling in staging areas - sight pictures, adjusting stock length, show-n-tell with their buddies etc. The staging area is NOT a "safety area lite".

 

We recently updated IMA rules to clarify what conduct is permitted in each of the FOUR different gun handling areas at our matches.

Edited February 24, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[sandrooney]

 "Merle is a GM and national champion that had a portion of his trigger finger amputated to where he barely could reach the side of the trigger and could never actually have his finger in the guard." 

 

Are you saying that he intentionally had a portion of his finger amputated ??

[L9X25]

No, that was poorly written by me. 

 

A portion of his finger had been amputated years earlier and, as a result, he was barely able to reach the trigger with the tip of what was left of his finger. 

 

His trigger was cut down to be extra short, so that he could reach it with the tip of his finger, but he could never put his finger in the trigger guard.

[OPENB]

Of course he could put his finger in the trigger guard. Otherwise he couldn't shoot the gun. That's where the trigger lives. 

[L9X25]

The point of the matter is that, the part of the finger that the RO was looking for did not exist.  He did not ever see his finger in the trigger guard, he just assumed it was in there, because he could not see it outside of the guard. 

 

@OPENB, if you saw his finger, and the modifications to the gun, you would understand.  His finger barely reaches the side of the trigger and never totally enter the trigger guard.  But that is not the point anyway, it is about the RO's interpretation of the rule.  He changed it from having his finger in the guard, to not seeing it outside of the guard as enough to call for a DQ.  

 

Is being argumentative a new sport here at Brian's forums?

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, L9X25 said:

 

 

Is being argumentative a new sport here at Brian's forums?

Maybe. Asking a question, making a comment someone doesn't agree with, etc isn't necessarily arguing. If I didn't know a shooter was missing a finger and saw him run in front of me and couldn't see the finger outside the trigger guard I probably would have stopped him too. But when it was made clear to me he had no finger I would have said"my bad, reshoot". But still, if he can somehow manage to pull the trigger on a gun he could actually be guilty of having his finger in the guard while not engaging targets. You can't have one without the other I would think. As far as your argument, "RO called DQ because he couldn't see the finger outside the trigger guard instead of seeing it in trigger guard". Under normal circumstances the finger will be in one place or the other right? It's either in or out. 

[MikieM]

53 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Maybe. Asking a question, making a comment someone doesn't agree with, etc isn't necessarily arguing. If I didn't know a shooter was missing a finger and saw him run in front of me and couldn't see the finger outside the trigger guard I probably would have stopped him too. But when it was made clear to me he had no finger I would have said"my bad, reshoot". But still, if he can somehow manage to pull the trigger on a gun he could actually be guilty of having his finger in the guard while not engaging targets. You can't have one without the other I would think. As far as your argument, "RO called DQ because he couldn't see the finger outside the trigger guard instead of seeing it in trigger guard". Under normal circumstances the finger will be in one place or the other right? It's either in or out. 

 

No, but rudeness is, and there's plenty of that here.

Edited February 24, 2018 by MikieM

[StuckinMS]

54 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Maybe. Asking a question, making a comment someone doesn't agree with, etc isn't necessarily arguing. If I didn't know a shooter was missing a finger and saw him run in front of me and couldn't see the finger outside the trigger guard I probably would have stopped him too. But when it was made clear to me he had no finger I would have said"my bad, reshoot". But still, if he can somehow manage to pull the trigger on a gun he could actually be guilty of having his finger in the guard while not engaging targets. You can't have one without the other I would think. As far as your argument, "RO called DQ because he couldn't see the finger outside the trigger guard instead of seeing it in trigger guard". Under normal circumstances the finger will be in one place or the other right? It's either in or out. 

I agree,  the shooter knows his situation and should make it clear before the make ready if the shooter wishes to avoid the call.  The RO is responsible for making the call initially,  the awarding the reshoot as well.  Shooters have to take some initiatives to address things that are outside the norms, not just sit back and lash out when something they could have avoided gets the appropriate but undesired result.

[L9X25]

I don't think you should make the call if you did not see the infraction. 

 

Assuming that someone violated a rule is not grounds for a DQ.

 

 

 

 

[StuckinMS]

17 minutes ago, L9X25 said:

I don't think you should make the call if you did not see the infraction. 

 

Assuming that someone violated a rule is not grounds for a DQ.

 

 

 

 

But, if it is clearly not seen outside the guard it is better to error on the side of caution.  Again, the shooter could and should prevent this before the make ready.  The shooters have to take some simple responsibility. 

[L9X25]

 

22 minutes ago, StuckinMS said:

But, if it is clearly not seen outside the guard it is better to error on the side of caution.  Again, the shooter could and should prevent this before the make ready.  The shooters have to take some simple responsibility. 

 

I disagree.

Edited February 24, 2018 by L9X25

[Jerrymarsh]

2 words  { Mandatory Reload } that's all it takes capacity issue solved

[L9X25]

Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

 

 

[1981Shooter]

1 hour ago, Jerrymarsh said:

2 words  { Mandatory Reload } that's all it takes capacity issue solved

Sounds a lot like the "Mandatory Fun" we had in the Navy 

[Patrick Scott]

1 hour ago, Jerrymarsh said:

2 words  { Mandatory Reload } that's all it takes capacity issue solved

Still not sure why some people think there is a "capacity issue" in PCC