Religious Shooter Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 At a recent match we had a bunch of steel targets stretched from 50 to 220 yards. I was calling a guy's hits on the steel. He comes to an MGM lolli-popper and he hits the right one once. I yelled "HIT!". He hits the right one again. He pauses and he hits the right one another time. At this point I shout "THE LEFT ONE!" He hits the left one and we move on... At the Nationals in Reno in 2004 my squad is at an intermediate rifle stage. About 8-10 steel arrayed from 50 to 150 yards. One of the guys starts to shoot the steel. He somehow gets confused and starts to engage a 300 yard fixed steel target. The 300 yard target wasn't a part of the stage. It was left out because it was fixed target. Though it wasn't fresly painted or anything. Anyway the shooter keeps on engaging it. Some of the RO's look around confused as they are watching the 50-150 yard steel and there are no impacts anywhere around them. I finally shout "HE IS SHOOTING AT THE 300 YARD TARGET" at an RO. An RO says "O" (as in "Oh that's what he is doing"). The shooter "get's it" and he starts shooting at the correct ones... As the rule goes there is no coaching. If there is, the shooter and coach are both penalized. I didn't get penalized at the Nationals. But should I have? Say you're spotting for a shooter and he is (as in the case above) shooting the same target over and over again waiting for you to say "HIT" (when you have already called that target hit). If you tell him, as I did, that they already hit the target, is that coaching? If you are RO'ing and the guy asks you "Which targets have I not hit?" Can you tell him which ones he hasn't hit? Coversely if I am on the ground and I get confused, can I ask "What targets have I not hit?" of the RO, should or can I be guaranteed guidance? Or am I just wasting my breath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 The difference is between coaching and spotting, perhaps? I'd guess you were calling in from the sidelines, not as an official spotter? Sounds like, for long shots, a spotter is needed. The failing then is not that the shooter didn't/couldn't call his hits, but that the match officials didn't make arrangements for consistent spotting. Just an uninformed guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 No one is allowed to say anything to the shooter dureing a course of fire except the R.O. He can only give the range commands & call hits if asked by the shooter, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 No one is allowed to say anything to the shooter dureing a course of fire except the R.O. He can only give the range commands & call hits if asked by the shooter, nothing else. Abso-frickin-lutely! The shooter can hammer an oil drum 50 yards to the left of the actual target all day long and it's not anyones place to say anything until the shooter finishes or actually does something unsafe. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 My error. Maybe I was remembering something I read about SOF. So, ya gotta know your ranges and how you dialed in for each. Am I also not correctly remembering that you're allowed a ballistics card/cheat sheet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 It's not prohibited... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 Hmm... interesting. IPSC Rifle Rules, January 2004 Edition • 33 8.6 Assistance or Interference 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot. 8.6.2 Any person providing assistance or interference to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6. "No assistance of any kind"... I guess the RO can't even call the hits?!?!?. I don't see anything in the book saying the RO can call hits. I vaugely remember that it was mentioned as being OK in Frontsight by Voit. But I guess it wasn't incorporated in the 2004 Rifle rulebook? So if it's not in the rulebook does that mean the RO's can't provide "assitance" by calling your hits since the rulebook specifically says only "safety warnings" can be issued during the course? Even then, what does calling your "hits" mean? As an RO can I say "You are HITTING to the left!"? I'm calling his hits right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 I tend to think that any external influence - from calling hits, to "coaching" a shooter that is hitting the 50-gal drum to the left of the target - materially *changes* the outcome of the competition. And, let's not forget this *is* a competition. If one shooter "beats" another, when he got "help" and the other did not... is that a fair outcome? If the shooter does not know what (or where) they are hitting, I don't believe their performance be artificially/externally "helped" by a third party. Rather, I think they should be accountable for what they actually *did* while the timer was running. And if they don't like that outcome, perhaps it will provide motivation to improve... but, the playing field should not be "tilted", IMO, to help them. My $.02 Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Is the guy who has spent 10 seconds banging away on a different stage's target or an oil drum in contention for a stage win? Is this any different from coaching a new shooter who forgot to look around a barrel to engage the last target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Is the guy who has spent 10 seconds banging away on a different stage's target or an oil drum in contention for a stage win? No... but my point is that if there is another shooter of the same skill level who either *doesn't* spend that 10 seconds, or *doesn't* get that coaching, is it fair that the "coaching" affected the outcome of their results? My opinion is that the results should reflect what the *shooter* did, not what the shooter-plus-RO-plus-friends-and-family-in-the-audience managed to come up with between them. (ObNote - unless the course of fire allows a spotter - that's a different thing) Is this any different from coaching a new shooter who forgot to look around a barrel to engage the last target? Nope, I have the same position there. I grant that it is common (and arguably acceptable) at club-level matches where the atmosphere is less about competition and more about a bunch of people having fun on some stages. But... if the competition is taken seriously, I think people should earn their own results, without outside help. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 He somehow gets confused and starts to engage a 300 yard fixed steel target. The 300 yard target wasn't a part of the stage. It was left out because it was fixed target. Though it wasn't fresly painted or anything. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's a stage design/set-up problem that should never have occurred...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I don't see anything in the book saying the RO can call hits. I vaugely remember that it was mentioned as being OK in Frontsight by Voit. But I guess it wasn't incorporated in the 2004 Rifle rulebook? So if it's not in the rulebook does that mean the RO's can't provide "assitance" by calling your hits since the rulebook specifically says only "safety warnings" can be issued during the course? The RO is not calling the competitors shots. He is scoring the target. I shot a rifle stage some months ago. I was hitting one of the steel targets, but the RO didn't call it, because he was looking at a different target. The competitor must be able to know that the target is scored. The system stinks, but it is what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I shot a rifle stage some months ago. I was hitting one of the steel targets, but the RO didn't call it, because he was looking at a different target. The competitor must be able to know that the target is scored. The system stinks, but it is what we have Yes, it is a flawed system. But yes, the hit calling is very important in that it verifies a score that cannot be read from the target later. The moment of a "hit", or a "not hit" is the only place the shooter has to actively disagree, or do anything about it. Because the competitor cannot argue hits/misses at the target later, the RO calling the hit is an extremely important part of using reactive rifle steel that re-sets and doesn't stay down for after the fact scoring. Steel without high viz hit indicators is a real bummer. I cannot count the number of times at local matches I have had to yell out my own hit because I saw the steel move in my scope and the RO never said a word. There are also times I have seen my shot impact the protective front plate of a re-setting popper and I hear a hit called by the RO. I have always taken the extra shot that was required in these cases and again called my lack of hit for the RO ;-) These type of things can only happen when steel that does not have a hit indicator device is employed. It really is too much to ask of an RO to spot an auto-popper flipping back at 200+ yards even with a spotter helping. If the naked eye cannot easily discern the hit, the spotter will never track what the shooter is really doing unless he knows what target to look at, when. Trying to demand an engagment order from the shooter for the purpose of spotting is a loser methodology too. There is room for some subjective issues here, but it works well enough to satisfy us for the moment, so we continue to do it this way. It's either this, or back to falling steel that needs manual re-setting and paper targets. I don't think we really want to go back there. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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