Do you like the new Production rules?

[motosapiens]

43 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

 

 

Just about everyone I know that carries, has some sort of polymer pistol. Yeah theres the metal framed carry guns out there and a lot of them but plastic is far more prevalent for carry as far as I can tell. 

 

 

notice i said duty/carry not 'ultra compact concealed carry'.

 

if you don't carry a full sized gun, that's cool, but for folks that do carry full sized guns, most of those guns that aren't 1911's are appropriate for production div. The cz's all started life as military/police issue sidearms. The whole reason we have custom shop versions of those guns now is the stupid rules from before that prevented people from making minor modifications.

 

imho production is still off the shelf with minor tweaking, but now you can tweak your 75b instead of having to go buy a custom shop gun.

[B_RAD]

21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

notice i said duty/carry not 'ultra compact concealed carry'.

 

if you don't carry a full sized gun, that's cool, but for folks that do carry full sized guns, most of those guns that aren't 1911's are appropriate for production div. The cz's all started life as military/police issue sidearms. The whole reason we have custom shop versions of those guns now is the stupid rules from before that prevented people from making minor modifications.

 

imho production is still off the shelf with minor tweaking, but now you can tweak your 75b instead of having to go buy a custom shop gun.

True. Good points. 

 

 

[Dutchman195]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

I don't think production was ever supposed to be off the shelf, out of the box. I thought it was just supposed to be based on common duty/carry guns, and it still is. the whole idea of no mods is imho pretty lame, and would only make actual common duty/carry guns uncompetitive, because everyone will buy custom shop cz's and tanfos instead of making a couple cheap mods to their m&p or glock.

I have legit never, ever seen someone carry a Shadow or Shadow 2. Let alone Tangfo. Maybe actually in europe officers carry them?

Most duty carry guns are uncompetitive in production already. 

[Tech32]

I liked the no external modifications, internal modifications are fine rules.

Pretty simple, and I think the fellow shooters probably policed themselves on the rule infringements before the RO would anyway.

[motosapiens]

24 minutes ago, Dutchman195 said:

I have legit never, ever seen someone carry a Shadow or Shadow 2. Let alone Tangfo. Maybe actually in europe officers carry them?
 

that's my point. those guns only exist as custom race guns because people are prohibited from making normal modifications to their sp01 or 75b, which are garden variety LE and military sidearms in euro-land.

Quote

Most duty carry guns are uncompetitive in production already

 

you must have a different idea of duty/carry than I do. it seems to me that glocks, m&p, xdm, cz75 series of all sorts, and berettas are about 90% of all guns used in production, and they are all duty/carry guns in use by a number of agencies. Tanfo is pretty much just a racier copy of a cz. dunno if any agency actually carries tanfo.

Edited February 20, 2018 by motosapiens

[obsessiveshooter]

I think the new rules are great!  It will allow the cheaper striker guns to be competitive with more expensive guns, via triggers.  People can make their pistol more comfortable to shoot now as well.  I hate to see people with their xd or M&P, etc. feel like they need to upgrade to compete with the custom shop guns.  I see a resurgence in striker-fire pistol popularity coming.    

[B_RAD]

10 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I think the new rules are great!  It will allow the cheaper striker guns to be competitive with more expensive guns, via triggers.  People can make their pistol more comfortable to shoot now as well.  I hate to see people with their xd or M&P, etc. feel like they need to upgrade to compete with the custom shop guns.  I see a resurgence in striker-fire pistol popularity coming.    

XD and M&P are only going to be competitive if you throw away every part and by all new parts that make up a Glock, Tanfo, CZ, etc.  

 

I'm a big believer that it's not the gun but that's only if you're not shooting a turd. Are there A class, maybe M class shooters with XD, M&P, maybe.  I stress maybe and not a lot of them. 

 

Seriously though, buying an after market trigger isn't going to make anyone any better or more competitive with anyone shooting a different gun. 

 

Now, making them more comfortable, I think is nice. 

 

Of course these are all just my opinions. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by B_RAD

[obsessiveshooter]

2 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

XD and M&P are only going to be competitive if you throw away every part and by all new parts that make up a Glock, Tanfo, CZ, etc.  

 

I'm a big believer that it's not the gun but it's. It the gun as long as you're not shooting a turd. Are there A class, maybe M class shooters with XD, M&P, maybe.  I stress maybe and not a lot of them. 

 

Seriously though, buying an after market trigger isn't going to make anyone any better or more competitive with anyone shooting a different gun. 

 

Now, making them more comfortable, I think is nice. 

Our game is mostly movement/skill/planning, but I think most of us agree that the sights and trigger are two very critical parts of a pistols performance.  I would see a difference in my match results if I were shooting my production gun with it's stock trigger & hammer vs it's current setup. Still not quite as nice as a super-tuned CZ, but I have bridged the gap to where I'm using equipment that is roughly equivalent, making the game more skill vs. skill.    

[MHicks]

Can you now remove the firing pin block because not all models of the same gun come with them?

[SCTaylor]

You guys kill me. Seriously.

 

I've got an 7lb 2oz DA & 3lb 3oz SA on my Tanfo.  And I could very easily get close to that with a few internal parts on my Glock 34 and not have that pesky DA.

 

I seriously don't know why I post here that much, my blood pressure just goes up.

[MemphisMechanic]

39 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I think the new rules are great!  It will allow the cheaper striker guns to be competitive with more expensive guns, via triggers.  People can make their pistol more comfortable to shoot now as well.  I hate to see people with their xd or M&P, etc. feel like they need to upgrade to compete with the custom shop guns.  I see a resurgence in striker-fire pistol popularity coming.    

 

Funny. To a man, the Production GMs I know or have taken a class from? They’re the ones with the closest guns to stock.

 

You guys are over here fretting about this gun being competitive with that gun, doing the math on if “Apex Trigger + M&P = 97% of a Shadow 2 at 25 yards”

 

 The winners are at the range practicing with close-to-stock, well-beaten guns.

 

I voted against liking the wider rule set, but he who practices the most, wins. Pretty much the end of it.

 

This won’t change anything.

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[BritinUSA]

19 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Can you now remove the firing pin block because not all models of the same gun come with them?

 

No…

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by BritinUSA

[obsessiveshooter]

No one is doing that math.  But part of the reason we have divisions in the first place is to have competitive equity, as far as equipment is concerned.  The new production rules further that equity. 

[SCTaylor]

7 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

No one is doing that math.  But part of the reason we have divisions in the first place is to have competitive equity, as far as equipment is concerned.  The new production rules further that equity. 

 

No. They. Don't.

 

How do you figure this is competitive equity?

[obsessiveshooter]

 
No. They. Don't.
 
How do you figure this is competitive equity?

You have top tier purpose-built $$$ custom shop guns that can be tuned to have incredible triggers, and come with extended mag releases and improved magwells. These pistols can't really get much better. Now cheaper regular service pistols can have much better triggers, better mag releases, etc. That's the equipment-related equity that I think has improved.

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[SCTaylor]

See my quote below? Please explain how a custom shop guns makes you better? In the OLD rule set, there are literally thousands of parts for any common gun (Plastic or Metal) to achieve nearly identical results to custom shop tuned guns.

 

My gun is not super tuned, isn't super special, overly expensive, etc.  I just don't get your point. The gun helps but PRACTICE makes you a winner.

 

 

12 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

You have top tier purpose-built $$$ custom shop guns that can be tuned to have incredible triggers, and come with extended mag releases and improved magwells. These pistols can't really get much better. Now cheaper regular service pistols can have much better triggers, better mag releases, etc. That's the equipment-related equity that I think has improved.

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Quote

I don't agree. My Tanfo Stock 2's were ~$900 and I've got $60? worth of parts in them. Not that much different from a Glock 34, Gen 4 at $600 box stock.

Edited February 20, 2018 by SCTaylor

[JAFO]

The camel's nose was in the tent when they allowed any aftermarket parts. The camel pretty much owned the tent when they allowed aftermarket hammers in direct violation of App D4. However, since they went and did it, hopefully the rule changes make equipment compliance easier to enforce. 

[obsessiveshooter]

SCTaylor,

Those two pistols, the Stock 2 and G34,  are designed for competition.  Not very pistol is.  Since you admitted that "the gun helps", then you have to admit that the gun can hurt you as well.       

[SCTaylor]

SCTaylor,
Those two pistols, the Stock 2 and G34,  are designed for competition.  Not very pistol is.  Since you admitted that "the gun helps", then you have to admit that the gun can hurt you as well.       

Put a G17, XD, or M&P in my hands with a $40 trigger job and a week to practice. I’ll still beat the same people by the same amount.

Practice trumps gear. Period.


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[MrSmith]

35 minutes ago, SCTaylor said:

 

Put a G17, XD, or M&P in my hands with a $40 trigger job and a week to practice. I’ll still beat the same people by the same amount.

Practice trumps gear. Period.


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I believe that you may be onto something.

[obsessiveshooter]

Put a G17, XD, or M&P in my hands with a $40 trigger job and a week to practice. I’ll still beat the same people by the same amount.

Practice trumps gear. Period.


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Everyone agrees that practice trumps gear. A $100 bill trumps a $5 bill, both have value.

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[motosapiens]

35 minutes ago, SCTaylor said:

 

Put a G17, XD, or M&P in my hands with a $40 trigger job and a week to practice. I’ll still beat the same people by the same amount.

Practice trumps gear. Period.
 

 

 

then it makes no sense for you to care about the rules at all. why does the change bother you? I feel the same way about the gun, and that's exactly why i think the new rules are better. simpler, easier to enforce, allow more tinkering for personal preference, reduces the perceived need to buy a custom shop gun, doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage.... what's not to like?

[JusticeOfToren]

Practice trumps certain amount of gear differences, but you won't see someone with a hi-point open to win area/national titles no matter how hard this person practices.  It's because there are always guys/gals practicing just as hard and using a better gun. 

 

I think it's important to put all these arguments under context - sure, you get better with more practices, but if you can only put in this much practice, will a better gun improve your performance?  I think the answer is probably yes in most cases.  

[SCTaylor]

 
then it makes no sense for you to care about the rules at all. why does the change bother you? I feel the same way about the gun, and that's exactly why i think the new rules are better. simpler, easier to enforce, allow more tinkering for personal preference, reduces the perceived need to buy a custom shop gun, doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage.... what's not to like?

Because we are polluting the gene pool if you will.

It doesn’t really matter. Honestly I’m more pissed at HQ.


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[Steppenwolf]

During WWII many American soldiers complained that the Germans had superior weapons. Believing that the "other side" has superior weapons tends to affect morale. Many competition shooters see top shooters shooting Brand X and buy it because they think the pistol was a factor in winning.

 

The emotional nature of the issue resonates more than the logical side of the argument. What people want to believe is true tends to win out over what is actually true. Many people are "tinkerers" as well. The reason a large aftermarket of gun parts exists is because people buy into the advertising and like to customize their gear. I like really "grippy" grips and if I can I will change the grips on a pistol that I like to match what works for me.

 

The argument about Production becoming an "arms race" or another version of Limited does tend to ring true. But USPSA wants to grow, manufacturers want to sell parts, people want "perceived advantages" even if "deep down" they know that practice is the real answer to getting better, and enforcement of the rules related to equipment was becoming an issue. I consider the new changes an "inevitable" evolution. We can't unring a bell. The people that spend money and upgrade will discover soon enough that gear didn't guarantee improvement (although some may make the claim because of the "placebo" effect).

 

The latest greatest "best" golf clubs don't guarantee a better golf game either, but that doesn't stop people from buying them. I just wish I had the foresight to develop some new gear that people would buy because it improves their "skill." I would laugh all the way to the bank. But I am left with just practicing more. . .