Do you like the new Production rules?

[Patrick Scott]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I may not be a serious shooter then, because I think the changes level the playing field.

So you are saying it wasnt level before?  If thats the case why is there such a variety of guns shooting PRD, who would intentionally handicap themselves?  Also if it wasnt level before should we expect to see a measurable difference in match results now?

Edited February 21, 2018 by Patrick Scott

[HoMiE]

1 minute ago, Patrick Scott said:

So you are saying it wasnt level before?  If thats the case why is there such a variety of guns shooting PRD, who would intentionally handicap themselves?  Also if it wasnt level before should be expect to see a measurable difference in match results now?

When 70% of the field at nationals is either shooting a shadow or tanfo, the perception is you need that gun or else your limiting yourself. 

[MikeBurgess]

6 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

When 70% of the field at nationals is either shooting a shadow or tanfo, the perception is you need that gun or else your limiting yourself. 

Unfortunately we are a bunch of sheep and will go buy whatever the top guys are using regardless if it makes US shoot better or not.  I watched a high M shooter change from a GLOCK to a CZ shadow, with all the bells and whistles, for the perceived advantage then never get back to the level they were at before the change. 

 

The unfortunate thing is Perception is not reality and most of us are willing to go spend lots of money based on perception

[Patrick Scott]

Here is how I look at it. All of these "dis-advantaged" gun are going to gain a slightly better trigger, 2 more ounces, frame cuts for higher hold, better mag releases, better slide stops and some extra areas to add traction. Guess what? The "advantaged" get all that minus the better trigger.  This wont level the playing field, it more or less raises it evenly with a small bump to the striker fired gun's triggers that still wont be as good as the trigger you can get out of the metal hammer guns.  

[HoMiE]

7 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Unfortunately we are a bunch of sheep and will go buy whatever the top guys are using regardless if it makes US shoot better or not.  I watched a high M shooter change from a GLOCK to a CZ shadow, with all the bells and whistles, for the perceived advantage then never get back to the level they were at before the change. 

 

The unfortunate thing is Perception is not reality and most of us are willing to go spend lots of money based on perception

I’ve been down that road myself. Funny how it always goes back to pick one and practice. 

[Crazy Scientist]

9 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Unfortunately we are a bunch of sheep and will go buy whatever the top guys are using regardless if it makes US shoot better or not.  I watched a high M shooter change from a GLOCK to a CZ shadow, with all the bells and whistles, for the perceived advantage then never get back to the level they were at before the change. 

 

The unfortunate thing is Perception is not reality and most of us are willing to go spend lots of money based on perception

THIS X 100

People want an easy 'fix'

 

The fix is to train your butt off.  I'd be interested to see a true comparison where a top shooter (or even a bad shooter--its just that using for a month will probably improve their performance!) takes a Tanfo, CZ, Glock, M&P and trains for 1 month with each and compare classifier scores after that time.  I bet any differences are within the noise.  But I still would like to see it. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Crazy Scientist

[SCTaylor]

9 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Unfortunately we are a bunch of sheep and will go buy whatever the top guys are using regardless if it makes US shoot better or not.  I watched a high M shooter change from a GLOCK to a CZ shadow, with all the bells and whistles, for the perceived advantage then never get back to the level they were at before the change. 

 

 

Same here. Had a local hotdog GM go from a G34, to a Tanfo, then to a Shadow, then back to a G34. He likes the gun better and does not feel at any disadvantage with using a striker gun.

[Patrick Scott]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Scientist said:

THIS X 100

People want an easy 'fix'

 

The fix is to train your butt off.  I'd be interested to see a true comparison where a top shooter (or even a bad shooter--its just that using for a month will probably improve their performance!) takes a Tanfo, CZ, Glock, M&P and trains for 1 month with each and compare classifier scores after that time.  I bet any differences are within the noise.  But I still would like to se 

Bad shooter right here. I shot Glock 34s for 18 months when I got into the sport and then went to tuned CZ SP-01 Shadows. Couldnt even measure the difference after 18 months with the CZ. Improvement only came with work. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Patrick Scott

[motosapiens]

31 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

So you are saying it wasnt level before?  If thats the case why is there such a variety of guns shooting PRD, who would intentionally handicap themselves?  Also if it wasnt level before should we expect to see a measurable difference in match results now?

I think guns other than custom shop race guns were disadvantaged. I think that's part of why we see so many custom shop race guns in production. Also it's a problem when large numbers of people are out of compliance with the rules, whether intentionally or not. It should be much easier to comply with the rules now, and you admit that the gun doesn't really make a difference, so everyone should be happy.

Edited February 21, 2018 by motosapiens

[Steppenwolf]

The "diet" industry (gadgets and supplements) makes multi-millions because most people want to believe the hype (and "celebrity" endorsements). If you are 50 or more pounds overweight and out of shape you typically don't want to admit reality (going to take many months of dedicated exercise, changing eating habits, and sticking to a routine, . . .). I really don't feel like going to the gym after work tonight, but I will. It was not the Stock 2 that won Nationals. It was Ben Stoeger going to the "gym" and "working out" religiously.

 

But the best thing about the updated rules is that we have something to "chew the fat" about on the forums. Now I'm going to go check the Classifieds for anything for sale that will improve my shooting.

[redpillregret]

If it doesn’t matter what one shoots, why doesn’t everyone get the cheapest gun possible and spend the rest on ammo and practice? If it is true, that is the best use of resources.

Or perhaps there is a balance. Some people shoot some guns better than others. No matter how hard I practice with some guns, I always shoot certain ones better.


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[SCTaylor]

39 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

So you want no tinkering with guns and just shoot the best stock gun with minor upgrades. Now that you can pretty much make other guns better there goes your competive edge? 

 

 

I guess reading comprehension is tough for you...  I like production with minimal allowable changes. I liked the old rule set, where any gun can be competitive with legal modifications.  The only advantage to a metal gun vs. plastic is weight. Nothing you can do there.

 

Nothing was broken with the production rule book. HQ muddied the waters with allowing equipment changes via email. And now to just get rid of "confusion" they are allowing everything short of slide cuts, magwells, and optics.

 

Blame Ben Stoeger using Beretta's for making everytone think metal da/sa guns are the only way to go.

[Patrick Scott]

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Also it's a problem when large numbers of people are out of compliance with the rules, whether intentionally or not. It should be much easier to comply with the rules now, and you admit that the gun doesn't really make a difference, so everyone should be happy.

Totally agree with you on this, and thats why this all happened.  I don't shoot PRD anymore, but these changes make me happier as a RO.  If I did still shoot PRD, I wouldnt change a thing on my CZs. 

 

[Crazy Scientist]

2 minutes ago, redpillregret said:

If it doesn’t matter what one shoots, why doesn’t everyone get the cheapest gun possible and spend the rest on ammo and practice? If it is true, that is the best use of resources.

Or perhaps there is a balance. Some people shoot some guns better than others. No matter how hard I practice with some guns, I always shoot certain ones better.


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I hear that argument a lot, but I think is that there is a diminishing return on hardware and at some point it plateaus. And I think that plateau is somewhere around a Glock 17 with decent sights and a "-" connector.  After than.  Ammo+training.

 

Disclaimer: CZ shooter who is just as bad with CZ as with M&P but a lot better 50 lbs lighter and counting.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Patrick Scott said:

Totally agree with you on this, and thats why this all happened.  I don't shoot PRD anymore, but these changes make me happier as a RO.  If I did still shoot PRD, I wouldnt change a thing on my CZs. 

 

 

I shot production long enough to win a state championship a few years ago, then got annoyed with the rules (was shooting a 75b) and switched to SS. Only thing I might change is a cgw comp hammer that is imho a bit easier and safer to manually decock. Not really sure if my trigger w/overtravel adjustment in that gun is cz custom or cgw. I suppose if cgw it was technically illegal.

[Mercs]

So I SHOULD buy the TP9SFX???


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[Crazy Scientist]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I shot production long enough to win a state championship a few years ago, then got annoyed with the rules (was shooting a 75b) and switched to SS. Only thing I might change is a cgw comp hammer that is imho a bit easier and safer to manually decock. Not really sure if my trigger w/overtravel adjustment in that gun is cz custom or cgw. I suppose if cgw it was technically illegal.

 

If there is one thing I hate about the Shadow2 its decocking.  Something is wrong with having my finger in the trigger guard and lowering the hammer all the way.  It doesn't sit well and continues to not sit well with me.  At non USPSA matches I either go SA w/ safety or lower to 'half-notch' with my finger off the trigger after release. 

 

On topic I think the CGW comp hammer were a part of this fiasco due to a DNROI ruling that made them legal because reasons.

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, Crazy Scientist said:

 

If there is one thing I hate about the Shadow2 its decocking.  Something is wrong with having my finger in the trigger guard and lowering the hammer all the way.  It doesn't sit well and continues to not sit well with me.  At non USPSA matches I either go SA w/ safety or lower to 'half-notch' with my finger off the trigger after release. 

i thought that for the first 10 times I decocked the gun manually. then i stopped worrying about it. I must have done it a gazillion times now with no problems. Of course I do point the gun in a safe direction.

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, Crazy Scientist said:

 

If there is one thing I hate about the Shadow2 its decocking.  Something is wrong with having my finger in the trigger guard and lowering the hammer all the way.  

 

That’s because you don’t lower the hammer if you’re doing it safely.

 

You place your thumb between the hammer and slide, hold the trigger down, and smoothly roll the thumb out.

 

Don’t thumb or pinch the hammer down. Use you body as a firing pin block.

[Mercs]

I don’t see how it is any more dangerous manually decocking while pointed in a safe direction than it is holstering a loaded striker-fired competition gun that has no safety. I suppose either flavor has a certain amount of risk that must be mitigated by training

 

 

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[Mcfoto]

1 hour ago, Mercs said:

I don’t see how it is any more dangerous manually decocking while pointed in a safe direction than it is holstering a loaded striker-fired competition gun that has no safety. I suppose either flavor has a certain amount of risk that must be mitigated by training

 

 

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This is why I shoot XDm - at least there's a grip safety so I move my hand off the butt as I holster. Honestly, the whole de-cocking issue is why I would never shoot a hammer-fired gun in Production.

[StuckinMS]

31 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

This is why I shoot XDm - at least there's a grip safety so I move my hand off the butt as I holster. Honestly, the whole de-cocking issue is why I would never shoot a hammer-fired gun in Production.

XDM for sure!  Springfield will even do the trigger work and put it under their warranty.   The 5.25 competition is an awesome gun!

[JAFO]

35 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

This is why I shoot XDm - at least there's a grip safety so I move my hand off the butt as I holster. Honestly, the whole de-cocking issue is why I would never shoot a hammer-fired gun in Production.

 

There are many hammer-fired guns on the list that have decocking levers or safety/decocking levers.  In fact, are there guns other than non-decocker CZ's that require manually lowering the hammer?

[Jeff226]

Not sure why people cling to this illusion of production anyway.  We'd be better off to let production go the rest of the way to limited minor, name it as such, and be done with it.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Jeff226
spell

[wtturn]

I think guns other than custom shop race guns were disadvantaged. .

I didn't get the memo.

And I keep beating guys with unicorns with my old busted G34.

Because the gun is all but irrelevant.